Theos-Talk Archives (October 1995 Message tl00058)

Jerry S. writes:

> Every second in time, is the cause of the next second, and the
> effect of the last. This is known in physics as the Law of Causation.
> Very few things (if any) are all cause, or all effect. Everything is
effected
> by other things and in turn will cause other things. ....
 <snip>
> When
> the Masters labeled areas as "spheres of causes" and 'spheres of
> effects" they were, IMHO, unconsciously muddying the waters.
Well, this is certainly possible, but (1) I think what the Masters are saying
is right on and (2) I tend to trust Them a whole lot, so I try to make sense
of what They write, and perhaps I fool myself when I do so. Maybe.

What I read from the Mahatma Letters on the topic, and what I understand
Buddhist cosmology to be saying as well, is that the only plane of CAUSES for
human beings is here, on the physical plane, where ALL of our energies can
(potentially) manifest, and where Manas is incarnated to take responsibility.
I think you are right, that HERE, on THIS plane, causes and effects are all
tangled up, because we are experiencing Karma even while we make more.
 Effects lead us simultaneously to produce new causes as we react, mostly
unconsciously I'm afraid.

The Kama-, Loka-, and Arupa-lokas are all planes of EFFECTS only, no new
causes are set in motion, which is why early Buddhism taught that the devas
and asuras etc. could not reach Nirvana from there: those devas etc. are US
IN DEVACHAN. When the Buddhists teach that we are reborn as devas if we are
very, very good, they don't mean on some other globe, I think, but in
Devachan, which may last for thousands of years.

It may not be typical for Theosophists to think of Devachan as "rebirth" but
it is, when you emerge from Kamaloka, you are "born anew" into the blissful
realms. You are -- temporarily -- a Deva, with a possible "lifespan" there
of tens of thousands (or more) years. But no new causes are set in motion,
only effectfs from earth life are experienced, until worn out, then "descent"
back down to earth for another go at it.

That, at least, is what I understand the Theosophical teaching to be
(according to HPB/her Teachers). All causes are set in motion here, "down
below" and those effects which CAN be experienced here ARE. Many effects
CANNOT be experienced here, and so we have the after -death states for those
energies to manifest in their appropriate way.

Jerry S. again:

>For example, your idea that emotions and
>thoughts, and spirit can all exist on the physical plane make
>no sense to me, literally.

Well, according to HPB and Mr. Judge, the Atman or "spirit" is not of this
plane, and will not incarnate until some vast period hence. All of humanity
is said to be preparing for the Great Event, and while "many are called, few
are chosen." For now, the teaching on Atman appears to be that it is
"attached" through the monad to the individual in incarnation, but only as a
witness, a Perceiver.

But the rest of our nature appears to be incarnated in the body. When here
in my physical body, I write these thoughts on the screen, I experience
different emotions. When I am afraid, I get a certain "tightness" in my
stomach. When I am glad a smile break out on my face. When I am stressed
for time my eyes don't read so well, etc. Emotions and thoughts seem pretty
clearly on this plane, at least those aspects of emotion & thought that are
able to manifest here.

There may well be other emotions and thought of the Higher Manas above my
personality, and as I do not have waking access to them, they may perhaps be
said to exist "on another plane."

But most of conscious human waking life (for the non-Initiate) appears to be
here, on the physical plane. Most of us are not aware of the astral or
higher planes most of the time, and so if thoughts are relegated to a distant
"mental" or "causal" plane, it is not clear how we could be experiencing them
here, in the physical brain and body.

Jerry S:

> These "clear" teachings are nowhere to be found, my friend. Please say
> "the globes are on the planes" one hundred times for me. I challenge you
to
> find a single quote from any Source Teaching (define this in any way,
shape, or
> form,
> that you want) that says each globe has its own set of planes.
I thought Daniel Caldwell presented quotes to the effect that the different
"lokas" are all within Globe D's "sphere of effects." I understood "lokas"
to mean planes. Not cosmic planes, but different states of consciousness on
different "layers" of space within a certain Globe.

I didn't sense your post as a "flame" at all, even though you seem to be
strongly disagreeing with me. To me, it just sounded like you were expressing
your views, and the reasons for them.

Rich