Theos-Talk Archives (May 1996 Message tl00670)

3 days after the first posting (made the 8th) I still have received a
return of  the message below from the listserver. Attempt No. 4: if
people are getting bombarded with the same post then please
drop me a note in private
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
Dear JHE and readers, the following message was bounced
from Theos-l yesterday - its chronological position is before my
later posts on the subject
.......................................................................
.........

JHE
>       My question doesn't concern the consciousness aspect, but
>the "extension" aspect.

Kim
  Why? Excuse me Jerry, why would you want to go into an discussion of
universal "extension"? What is the relevance to our discussion in your
opinion (I have honestly no clue to it)? I think it may be about time that
you forward *your* terminology and a few examples of your views on esoteric
 metaphysics. It would save me some time guessing your meaning - see below
for no less than 3 rounds of exchanges related to one of your terms  which
I apparently keep misunderstanding.
  In eastern thought finiteness is a manifestation and limited expression
of something infinite. To postulate an infinitude of finite systems
containing each other as chinese dolls is to miss the vital philosophical
point even if the postulate can be made. As manifestations they cannot have
 any relation to the absolute whatever they may contain.
.........
Kim
>>>> they are the white circle plane in the black field. The 6th is
>>>>completely unknown. The vedantins place their Parabrahm on the
>>>>first plane, the seventh being prakritic, the 5th universal
>>>>mind.

JHE
>>>Which chart are you using here?

Kim
>>Beginning of Proem and the Subba Row/Schwarz diagrams

JHE
>There are no charts in the Proem, only symbols.  I never heard of
>the "Subba Row/Schwarz diagrams."  I didn't even know they met.
>But these would probably be outside the parameters of this
>discussion anyway, unless they are a commentary on some specific
>teaching of HPB or CWL.

Kim
   Excuse me for being vague. I am using the description of the starting
point of esoteric symbology as mentioned on the first page of Proem plus
the Schwarz diagrams plus the Subba Row diagrams already mentioned to
illustrate my point - which is related to your questioning of me, not the
parameters of our discussion.

 JHE
>>>>What do you call the planes for the earth's system of globes?

Kim
>>>4 lower planes of the solar system also called planes of the 4
>>>ethers (AAB). see again CW XII p. 658 for grossest globe
>>>(ours) on 7th or objective plane.

>>- an error here. The 4 lower should be called 4th etheric,
>>gaseous, liquid and dense.
Kim: Note - or buddhic, mental, astral and physical

JHE:
>Is AAB's definition supposed to be representative of HPB or CWL?

Kim:
Sofar HPB. Just ignore the mentioning of AAB and use diagram B on p. 658.
The consequence of using a system of 7 planes to students well aware of the
diagram at p. 153 of SD (Zirkoff facsimile ed.) is that only
the 4 lower are described here and described in the diagram as -
4) (globe A+G) human principles: spirit+soul, vehicle of spirit for
    the fourth plane, buddhic.
5) (globe B+F) mind+upadhi of mind for mental plane
6) (globe C+E) life+astral body for astral plane
7) (globe D) physical body for physical plane

 These are the human principles (upadhis, vehicles) and planets of any
chain within the seven planes of our solar system. This little exposition -
my posts read in sequence - should be sufficient to proove one of your
initial mistakes. You are of course welcome to refer to it as my view, but
to me it is very clear.

JHE:
>Can you give me an HPB or CWL quote and nomenclature instead?  I
>don't find the terms "etheric" "gaseous" "liquid" and "dense"
>used anywhere on p. 658.  Can you give me HPB's corresponding
>terms from p. 658?

Kim
 The terms in the SD I mentioned above - for CW XII p. 658 the 4 lower
planes of our solar system are called:
4) fohatic
5) jivic
6) astral
7) objective, the fourth globe of every planetary chain.

 JHE
>You are saying that the planes for the earth's system of globes
>are the same as the planes of the solar system?  Do you have a
>name for it?

Kim
 The Earth chain, the planes of the solar system. Have we not been here
before?

JHE
>>>>What do you call the planes for the sun's system of globes?

Kim
>>>Our planetary chain ARE one of our sun's systems of globes (at
>>>least affiliated with this solar system)?  Or do you mean the
>>>sacred planets?

JHE
>>No, I don't mean the sacred planets. I was asking for the
>>overall term for the planes of the sun's system of globes, ie
>>the sun's globes A - E.

Kim
>>Your question was extremely confusing. You mean by the sun's
>>system of globes the visible, physical globes (as I understand
>>it). They would generally be globe D of the various chains - all
>>on the seventh plane.

JHE
>  The Sun's system of globes would be seven solar globes, just as
>the Earth's system of globes would be terran seven globes.  HPB
>normally refers to the globes of any system of globes as globe A,
>globe B, globe C, etc.   Now, these seven globes are found on the
>four lower planes of a system of seven planes.  What is the
>overall name you use for this system of seven planes?

Kim
   It is definitely time for you to specify some of your ideas on this
subject - we have been going around your terminology for 4 rounds. The
above seems very confusing (see below) without specifying what *your*
terminology is. What is a solar globe? Give me a reference please.
 Without any shadow of doubt any principle, and any planet within this
system would be on the planes of the solar system (even logic can proove
this). By globes of the sun I can only understand the representative globe
of the Earth chain (in our case the Earth, D) on one or other plane as well
as the corresponding globes of similar chains - OR the physical sun which
is obviously a triple (mathematics and logic can proove this).

JHE
>>>>What do you call the planes where are to be found the human
>>>>principles?

Kim
>>>On all planes of the solar system and hence the planes of the
>>>planetary chain except the highest.

JHE
>We will have plenty of time to get into a description of these
>planes.  But at present, I'm simply looking for a noun.  For
>instance, if you were to ask me what I call my correspondent who
>lives in Denmark, I would answer "Kim Poulsen."   So, in the same
>vein, what do you call the plans where are to be found the human
>principles?

Kim
?!?  I just answered you above with "the planes of the solar system". I can
hardly be any clearer than this. Now we are here again!

JHE
>>Then you are saying that the human "astral body" is on the
>>solar "astral plane" and the "mental body" is on the solar
>>mental plane?

Kim
>>Generally yes. But a mental body is a very simplified concept
>>except if used for the causal body, karana sarira

JHE
>Are you saying that the term "mental body" can denote the "causal
>body" and/or the "karana sarira"?

Kim
   Causal body is a direct translation of karana sarira and yes. But in
fact
all manifestations of the lower mental plane (kama-manasic) could be
designated as such. Mental body is a very loose term.

JHE
>>Please enumerate for me the terms you use for the seven
>>principles of man.

Kim
>For our purpose the one on p. 607 of CW XII will do, supported
>by the one between  p. 524-5. The 4 eternal principles are here
>atma, buddhi, manas and the auric envelope, together inner man
>or monad-ego relation - and the 3 outer aspects, lower mind,
>astral and physical (prana as the life-force of the etheric
>web). In short 7 principles on 6 planes (2 on the dual mental
>plane). It is the best and most occult enumeration by HPB in my
>opinion.

JHE
>You are giving me three here.  Two from vol. 12, and yours
>described above, which I tabulated below for comparison.   The
>enumerations in volume twelve are fine, and we can go by them.
>Later, we will have to add CWL's.   You will be receiving CWL's
>diagrams shortly.

>Kim                     p. 607                p. 524-25

>atma                    atman                  atman
>auric envelope       auric envelope
>buddhi                  buddhi                 buddhi
>manas                  manas                 manas
>lower mind            lower manas        lower manas
                                                        kama-rupa
>astral                    linga sarira          linga sarira
>physical                 prana                 prana

Kim
Excellent! The Microcosmic principles on p. 524-5 represents
consciousness on the physical plane (related to the sense apparatus)
while diagram C on p. 658 is more general (it can fit any of the seven
planes). The principles (upadhis) and the parts of consciousness must not
be confounded.

Kim
>To recapitulate if we are to concentrate on HPB - I would like
>to use:

>   For the 7 principles - the diagram on p. 607

JHE
>Done.

Kim
>For the universal or macrocosmic planes Figure A of p. 658. The
>names relates only to forces manifesting within the solar system
>and no attempt is made to designate them on their own plane.

JHE
>By "universal planes" you mean what HPB calls "macrocosmic
>planes"?  OK

Kim
And "Kosmic" planes :-)

Kim
>>For the solar physical body or prakritic planes Figure B of p.
>>658. These are the planes of the solar system. On the 4 lower we
>>have the 7 globes of a chain.

JHE
>Then for the planes of the solar system, you call them "the solar
>physical body"?  By "7 globes of a chain" you mean both the earth
>chain and the sun chain?

Kim
We must identify your sun chain before we go any futher. Please
give me a reference. I can think of at least three concepts which may be
designated as such.

 Kim
>>For the sub-planes of these planes of consciousness see diagram
>>C. They are also the seven parts of consciousness as manifesting
>>on either plane. Must not be confused with seven principles.

JHE
>Diagram "C" represents the sub-planes of each of the 7 prakritic
>planes in figure "B"?

Kim
Not quite. See p. 660 for explanation and names for sub-planes. But
diagram C represent the peculiarity of human cosciousness on these planes.
The triangle is Atma-buddhi-manas, then comes the 4 lower *principles of
consciousness*. The analogy to the human principles are exact.

Kim
>>For explanation of AAB see Cosmic Fire p. 116-7 (for want of a
>>diagram by CWL)

JHE
>I don't know whether AAB is representative of CWL.  Let's wait
>until you have a diagram from CWL.

Kim
Sure.

Kim
>>On p. 116 is explained the position of seven planes of solar
>>system as sub-planes of cosmic physical. On p. 817 the >planes
of the solar system is shown in the diagram "Cosmic >Physical
Plane"
>>   In the diagram is shown the major principles and their
>>correlations on the planes. They correspond to Auric body and
>>atma-buddha-manas in CW p. 607 tabulation. Astral and physical
>>bodies are ignored in the diagrams but treated of elsewhere

JHE
>I don't have a copy of ~Cosmic Fire~ at the moment.  But a
>comparison of ~Cosmic Fire~ to the ~CW~ seems to be outside of
>the parameters of discussion anyway.

Kim
See it as a footnote directed towards readers interested in AAB. It may
come in handy later in the discussion.

 JHE
>With regard to CWL's "constitution of man" compared to HPB's
>"constitution of man."   As for your "notion" of a common
>esoteric system, I understand that you operate from this
>assumption.  The reason why this or any other assumption can't be
>forwarded as proof is because doing so is an exercise in circular
>reasoning.

Kim
The evidence will speak for itself. It already did. Your initial objection
which caught my eye was the following:
"Therefore, I find two striking differences between
HPB's principles and CWL's bodies.  The first is that the CWL's
bodies are found on the seven solar planes while HPB's are on the
seven sub-planes of the solar physical plane.  The second
difference is that CWL's bodies are formed from the Elements,
while HPB's are *aspects* of the Elements."
 This is in my opinion a confusion on somebodys behalf (you or CWL - or
you AND CWL) of a) the "upadhis", the vehicles of consciousness, the
principles and b) the parts (to avoid confusion with principles) of
consciousness as manifesting on any plane of consciousness.

JHE
>OK, so far, here is what I understand of your nomenclature:

>Kim                        HPB                                CWL

>Universal planes           Macrocosmic planes (B:CW XII:658)   ?
>Solar physical body        Prakritic planes ("")               ?

Kim
Fine. Let us postpone further investigation in this direction until
your letter arrives. Thank you  :-)

In friendship,

Kim