Theos-Talk Archives (November 1995 Message tl00048)

>Patrick:
>The rendering of the personality and body into a negative unconscious
>state for an entity to possess or use it is *always* wrong. There are no
>exceptions. There are many deceivers and manipulators on the astral plane ...
>
>Eldon:
>Here's a point where we can find agreement.
Here's a point in which I can disagree. Never say never. Almost
nothing is *always* right or wrong.

>Patrick:
>The truth of the matter is that when a person goes in to an altered state
>they can via personal psychometry receive accurate information and even
>possessors can give accurate information - but this is all part of the
>deception.
You sound paranoid here Patrick. Look at what
you are saying please. You say "truth itself is part of the lie" which
is like the story about the Devil who says "Everything I say is a lie."
Lets please be reasonable here. I know that you and lots of other
theosophists are paranoid about psychism and its terrors but
let's try to demonstrate some rational thought in our arguments.
I suspect that what you meant to say is that even psychism
produces some truth enough perhaps to convince people that
all of it is true. If that is what you meant then I can agree with you.
But your wording implies a *Deception* ala conspiracy theories
and so on which I can't buy.

Patrick:
<The main issue is that such practices are not always accurate and
>are not supported by the Mahatmas or any Initiate for the reason that the
>rendering of the system into such a state actually takes the person away from
>the radiance in consciousness of their own soul and thereby retards their own
>evolution toward full spiritual consciousness. A Mahatma works in
>cooperation with and through the Higher Self.

Eldon posted some quotes awhile back about zazen in which
Zen teaches that *everything* that comes to you during meditation is
mayavic - even buddhi-manas. This idea comes from the teaching that
everything below the Abyss is maya an illusion. In this technical sense
there is as much illusion and deception in buddhi-manas as there is
in kama-manas and as I have already said many times the most
deceptive of all possible states is our waking state in the physical world.
Some say that everything has maya in it some more and some less.
Since I follow this idea I can't help but view your fear of kama-manas
as a bit overdone and in this you are in the company of most
theosophists unfortunately.

Bee here:
<Excuse me for butting in. Why have the Mahatmas stopped using other persons
<as mini messengers these days? Or have they?
As I understand the teachings they have not stopped. The
Masters send out thoughts into the world and anyone who is receptive
can tune in on them.

>Patrick:
>The personality relationship that is established in such is devitalizing and
>focuses below the level of spiritual awareness.
I hate to say this Patrick but buddhi-manas is also "below
the level of spiritual awareness." Spiritual awareness begins with Atma.
I have no idea what "devitalizing" means but I assume that you picked this
up in the theosophical literature somewhere and are continuing its use.
Exercise for example is also devitalizing for awhile but its said to be
good for you to do.

Bee:
<Many have connected with their higher selves and many
<think they have. I guess the trick is to distinguish which is which. Maybe
<that is the lesson of our times.
Agreed.

Comment: I am not trying to pick on Patrick here. I *am* trying to pick
on an idea that Judge promoted to the effect that ALL psychism is
evil bad and rotten to the core. Thats just plain silly and to me smacks
of paranoia. I think that Judge did this because during his time too
many people were getting burned and the theosophical teachings
were not well known. I agree with JRC that we have advanced almost
100 years from then and times have changed. Unfortunately those
theosophists who parrot the "source teachings" still keep on bantering
this stuff without any first-hand experience. Nothing at all personal
to Patrick in this. In fact I want to thank patrick for bringing this up.

Jerry S.