Theos-Talk Archives (October 1995 Message tl00315)

Rich to me:
<William Q. Judge writes, in *THE OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY* p. 42,
<"The astral body has within it the real organs of the outer sense organs. In
<it are the sight, hearing, power to smell, and the sense of touch."

This refers to the system of chakras and nadis, which are either
located in the astral or etheric body, depending on your source.
I don't have any disagreement with this, Rich.

Rich:<If it exists "on the mental plane and only on the mental plane," how is it
we
experience mind here in the physical body, using the physical brain as its
vehicle? You have never explained this, though I've asked about 4 times.>

Sorry for taking so long. You do not experience mind in your
physical body. Neither do I, nor does anyone else. Mind is on the mental
plane. Emotions are on the astral plane. You give me the impression
that you think that these planes are way out in space somewhere (?).
Our astral and mental bodies surround and envelope our physical body
and all are linked together through the chakras and nadis. Anyway,
if your mind was in the physical body, as you seem to think, then perhaps
you can explain to me how you can think in your dreams, or in meditation,
when you are no longer in your physical body? If the mind was located
in the physical body, out-of-body experiences would be impossible.
As far as the chakras are concerned, many people think of them as
located along the spine of the physical body. This too is an error. The
chakras are in the astral body, at locations which align with certain parts
of the physical body. The heart chakra, for example, is not located in our
heart, but along the sushumna nadi at a position in the astral body that
corresponds to the physical heart (the central channel is not located
in the spine, but in the astral body at a point which corresponds to
the physical spine). The mind is located in the mental body at a point
which corresponds to the brain in the physcial body. Our bodies all
overlap each other. When our consciousness is focused in our physical
body (i.e., in the waking state) it seems like our mind is actually in our
physcial body, but this is an illusion. Most people think that emotions
are in the mind, too, but is also an illusion. I hope this helps.

Rich:<No, that's not what the Mahatma Letters of HPB say. The KriyaShakti
is an energy controlled by the mind to TEMPORARILY project a vehicle for
itself.>

I think that this is a matter of interpetation. I see Kriyasakti as an
energy that can be used to allow us to temporarily shift consciousness to the
mental body.

Rich:<The Tibetans do not teach this to my knowledge. A Tibetan source for this
assertion would be very interesting.>

Again, there are lots of sources for this. How about Nagarjuna,
who wrote "The illusory body dwells within our body, but because
we lack good fortune we do not comprehend it." (Nagarjuna's Five
Stages of Completion Stage, as translated by Geshe Gyatso in Clear
Light of Bliss (Tharpa Publications) p. 201).
There is a lot of info around on the Tibetan "illusory body" which has
both a pure (mental body) and an impure (astral body) form. Gyatso
describes them very well, but old Evans-Wentz also talks about them in
his classic Tibetan Yoga and Secret Doctrines. While on this subject,
let me also quote Gyatso, who writes 3 descriptions of the illusory body:
"1) it is free from any type of ordinary appearance
 2) it is perceived only by the meditator and by those who have also
 attained the illusory body
 3) it is not an object realized by logicians who do not practice. " (p 198)

Perhaps you are a "logician who does not practice," Rich?
I have practiced the yogas, and I can use my "illusory body" to a degree
(which, BTW, is equivalent to the Body of Light taught in magical schools).
We are fast getting into a semantics problem here, with all these technical
terms being tossed around. But the basic concept is a simple one.

Rich:<So when HPB or other Adept materializes something on the physical plane,
it
is not "mind-created"? Where does this idea that the mind is ONLY on a
mental plane come from? The mind can create on ANY plane if it is trained,
it is not limited to some one sphere.>

Yes, physical things can be mind-created. This is called
precipitation, and I have a ritual for it in one of my magic books. What
does this have to do with planes? How can the human mind create
on *any* plane? What a novel idea. Can it create on the spiritual plane?
As far as I am concerned, the mind can create only on the mental, astral
and physical planes and cannot effect any of the planes above it. It
is not "mind" that travels to higher planes, Rich. It is consciousness.
The human "mind" can be defined as consciounsess when focused in
the mental body, if you want a nice definition.

Rich:<HPB often speaks of all seven planes of Globe D as "the earth" or "our
earth"
and it included the Kama-lokas and Devachans of Globe D. "Earth" is not just
physical, it is that very misunderstanding that HPB tried to clear up. The
earth itself has seven aspects or planes, as do every other of the 6 globes.>

IMHO, you are misreading HPB and confounding the planes.
Globe D refers to our physical planet, Earth. Kamaloka is on the astral plane,
and Devachan is on the mental plane. This does not mean that they are way
off in space somewhere. They are within the "environment" of Earth. And, yes,
Globe D does have "bodies" on all 7 cosmic planes, but this gets very confusing,

and so HPB and the MLs refer to Globe D as Earth. But this is not true for the
other Globes, which have no physical counterpart. Kamaloka and Devachan
are regions on the astral and mental bodies respectively of Globe D.

Perhaps it would help if we changed the word "body" to "vehicle of
consciousness?" I look at the mind-body duality in the same way
as the more general subjective-objective duality. I don't much care
what we call it.

Jerry S.