Theos-Talk Archives (October 1995 Message tl00305)

Jerry S. writes:

> I am not at all sure of what the heck you mean here,
> Rich. The physical senses and their relationship to the
> brain (sensory and motor nerves, etc) are well documented.
> Medical science needs no astral or mental causes for physical
> sensations.
Medical science has its theories, Theosophy has others. We are free to
choose what we like, but let's be clear on the Theosophical position
according to its Teachers.

William Q. Judge writes, in *THE OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY* p. 42,
"The astral body has within it the real organs of the outer sense organs. In
it are the sight, hearing, power to smell, and the sense of touch." HPB says
exactly the same thing in ISIS UNVEILED, I just don't have time to go digging
around that voluminous source for a handy quote. The astral senses are the
basis of the physical ones, and as we all know, the eyes can be open and not
SEE when our attention is directed elsewhere. The physical senses are DEAD
and do not function alone. They need the INNER MAN to use them (or mis-use
them.)

Jerry S.

> You
> seem to be saying that the astral body has virtually
> unlimited senses, which I rather doubt.
Again, Mr. Judge, p. 44: "The astral--which are the REAL--organs, do the
seeing and the hearing, and as all material objects are constantly in motion
among their own atoms the astral sight and hearing are not impeded, but work
at a distance as great as the extension of the astral light or matter around
and about the earth." So no, not "unlimited," but limited to the dimensions
of the astral light which surrounds the earth and extends beyond it quite a
distance, measured best in hundreds of miles.

Jerry S:

> Do you see, Rich, how holding onto
> such anachronisms gets us theosophist into so much trouble
> with the outside, as well as with new (and sometimes
> not so new) members?
The trouble is easily avoided if we explain our terms to newcomers at the
beginning, and in truth, when one reads the source materials, the meanings of
the words are pretty clear. I'm afraid Leadbeater, Besant, Alice Bailey and
friends messed up the terms by screwing around with them for no good reason.

Jerry S:

> < We are not taught any "mansic" body by early writers, in
> <fact they call it "arupa", formless or bodiless.
> Depends on how you define "early." HPB mentions
> just such a "mind body" and said that manas "in conjunction
> with its vehicle becomes Kama-rupa and Mayavi-rupa--body of
> desire or "illusion body." " (CW Vol VII, p 188).

Well, it's a temporarily projected form FROM the mind, not the body OF the
mind, and it lasts only so long as one concentrates upon it. It is certainly
not a "body" in the sense of physical or astral, which form vehicles for a
lifetime.

Jerry S.:

> I am tired of arguing with you on this one. Please
> read the 1000+ books in any Adyar (or Wheaton) TS library.
> You are not Adyar, and you admit to having read nothing from
> this group.
When did I admit I had read nothing from Adyar? I have most of Annie
Besant's and Leadbeater's books nearby, either in my own library, or at my
local lodge. I have read a great deal of their works, and that is how I came
to form my present (low) opinion of them. We disagree, that's all, and it is
not very comfortable to have the disagreement simply reduced to my ignorance
of "Adyar." (Is Adyar some homogenous thing of which we should be aware?
It's as diverse as any place I've been, at least when I was there. All kinds
of people had all kinds of ideas, and none of them agreed. Which is fine.)

Jerry S.:

> There is manas, Rich, and only manas - which means mind and
> especially the human mind. Which, BTW, exists on the mental
> plane and only on the mental plane.

If it exists "on the mental plane and only on the mental plane," how is it we
experience mind here in the physical body, using the physical brain as its
vehicle? You have never explained this, though I've asked about 4 times.

Jerry S.:

> <The astral body is the image in the astral light that
> <governs our physical form, and is the seat of our senses.
> <The physical is really concreted astral, and not a separate
> <plane or principle.
> Where on earth did you find this idea, Eldon?
> Just as the physical is "concreted astral" so the astral
> is concreted mental.
No, that's not what the teachings (or Eldon) say. The two are not parallel.

Jerry S.:

> I don't believe for a minute that we "create"
> our mental body, which I see as exactly the Mayavi-rupa.
> Its already there, on the mental plane. We simply
> learn to focus in it, thats all.
No, that's not what the Mahatma Letters of HPB say. The KriyaShakti is an
energy controlled by the mind to TEMPORARILY project a vehicle for itself.

Jerry S.:

> The
> exoteric teaching is that we must create such a body
> (and this can be found in many Taoist texts, for example)
> but the esoteric teaching is that it already exists
> and we simply learn to focus consciousness in it (the
> Tibetans, for example, teach this).
The Tibetans do not teach this to my knowledge. A Tibetan source for this
assertion would be very interesting. Rather, the Tibetans teach that there
are 5 skandhas, only one of which is a body in any sense (Skt. "rupa,: Tbtn.
"sku"). Esoterically they teach a "lung" body, which is able to leave the
physical, etc. COnsciousness, however, is pure, "clear" "natural" and needs
no vehicle WHATSOEVER.

Jerrys S.:

 Any "mind-created body" or mind-created
anything soever MUST be on the mental plane, by definition
of "mind-created."

So when HPB or other Adept materializes something on the physical plane, it
is not "mind-created"? Where does this idea that the mind is ONLY on a
mental plane come from? The mind can create on ANY plane if it is trained,
it is not limited to some one sphere.

Jerry S.:

> IMHO, the *only*
> connection that we have with Earth is via the physical
> senses of our physical body.
HPB often speaks of all seven planes of Globe D as "the earth" or "our earth"
and it included the Kama-lokas and Devachans of Globe D. "Earth" is not just
physical, it is that very misunderstanding that HPB tried to clear up. The
earth itself has seven aspects or planes, as do every other of the 6 globes.

Rich