Theos-Talk Archives (August 1995 Message tl00181)

Jerry:
I use the term chaos in its technical sense. The very fact that
events can be unpredictible implies the existence of free will
(if all future events were predictible, free will would go right
out the window).

Martin:
A couple of months ago I browsed through a book about a conference
about the implications of Bell's theorem. Some scientists argued
that the uncertainty or unpredictability, spoken of in QM arises
as a result of the measurement process. They continued saying that
QM is only a theory of measurement and is severely limited in scope.
What these scientists are doing is trying to gain an understanding
of the implications of Bell's theorem for the two hitherto unreconcilable
theories of physics: QM and RT (relativity theory). Some things are
wrong in the very axioms of either RT and/or QM.
What I want to say here is: physics has a long way to go before
understanding nature in its essence and unpredictability may be a nice word
for ignorance..
I believe in free will (within limits) and the movements of particles/waves
has some degree of freedom too, leading us to say that their behaviour
is unpredictable. Well, who knows? Maybe so, maybe not. If one were
to understand the character of individual particles (does such a thing
exist?) then one would understand its motions..analogous to the use
of the free will by the human individual.

Jerry:
Now this idea brings in the
rather weird idea proposed by HPB that the planes are divided up
by a causal and an effective, in series one after the other.
So, our physical plane is causal and we make karma on it. The
astral is largely effective, and we obtain our karmic effects
there, and so on. HPB is pretty much the only one I have ever
heard to describe the planes in this way.

Martin: This is , I think, because the average human
being has not yet learned to self-consciously act on the astral plane.
If one has developed that quality, then, I guess, we make karma on
the astral plane too. As I understand theosophy only two types of humans
can do this: 1.sorcerors and 2.Mahatmas, etc.
These two types maintain their self-consciousness after death,
in the kama-loka, in different states of course.
GdP has written a bit about this in his esoteric teachings.
So, HPB stands not alone on this.

Jerry:
Moksha, or liberation, is said to actually consume one's karma.
 However, my own view is that we reach a point or spiritual
condition in which our past karma simply no longer has any
effect over us. In a way, these two views are saying much the
same thing.

Martin:
Yes, and I see the idea of 'rising above the duality of nature'
as an identical notion. When one has shifted one's center
of consciousness to another level of awareness, one makes new karma
'there', another type of karma , another type of 'impressions'
on the substances of nature.
I think that one's 'individual' karma more or less coalesces then
with the collective karma (especially the spiritual aspects of the
collective)

>Jerry:
>This notion of liberation while living can
>be found in both Hinduism and <..> Buddhism
>
>Martin:
>And in Theosophy as well..

Jerry:
Could you find a few quotes for me? HPB does mention the
jivamukti a few times, but only in the context of a very high
mahatma, and she never really describes it that I know of.

Martin:
Yes, HPB speaks a lot about 'adepts', that's true.
GdP has quite some interesting things to say about the trikaya
in his esoteric teachings. I personally think it is all a matter
of *degree*. One doesn't jump from a state of ignorance into nirvana..
Rather it is a stepwise process, involving several steps of initiations.
WQ Judge has written about the Bhagavad Gita and mastering the forces
of nature. His article on ~culture of concentration~ is well worth
pondering about. This may not be exactly what you asked for, but in my
view the *process* of living the life, treading the path is more important
than the result, because there is no end to it, only new beginnings..
spiralling up and down, so to speak along the ladder of life (trees of life,
hierarchies).
Panta Rhei.

Jerry:
I prefer chaos because chaos is more basic - free will exists
only as a result of chaos (unpredictibility or as you say "blind
chance").

Martin:
Maybe, maybe not. The first person to really explain the rising of free
will out of unpredictability has yet to show up (ie, i'm not aware
of a completely consistent theory about this)
Free will exists because of transcendence of mind beyond space-time
limitations (IMO). That I can accept. Maybe unpredictability arises out of
the use of free will, its acting in space-time, a projection of spiritual
will in this world. But is this really unpredictable or can't we see
the causes or propensities or skandha's or whatever behind the scenes?
Free will leads to the breaking of states of equilibrium and the
establishment of a new equilibrium, isn't it? Shiva- the destroyer-renewer:
this is also a function of the human mind.

Jerry:
BTW, free will itself is karmic, because whatever we
freely or consciously choose will have karmic consequences.

Martin:
Yes, and also the choice itself is based on the current state
of awareness, thus dependant on conditions of mind or its transparancy
to the flow of consciousness.

Jerry:
Chaos is not karmic (within limits).

Martin:
Is unpredictability the working of the One Life in nature?
Is it the working of mind beyond space-time limitations
projected _in_ space-time, setting up new conditions?
(How I would love to have a theory about the Laya centers..)

| Martin Euser | Man is a Divine Spark. |
| euser@xs4all.nl | Realize your potential! |
| http://spirit.satelnet.org/Spirit/mysteries.html |
| See: theosophy corner |