Theos-Talk Archives (August 1995 Message tl00178)

Jung & Astrology: For all of you Jung & Astrology buffs, I
suggest reading WHO AM I: PRESONALITY TYPES FOR
SELF-DISCOVERY by Roger Frager, Ph.D. (Editor) 1994, a
Jeremy P. Tarcher/Putnam Book, New Tork. It contains many
neat articles on the very subjects that you are discussing.
 For example, James Hillman (a Jungian) says exactly what
Arthur is saying about the dangers of personality typing.

Martin: < Some things are wrong in the very axioms of either
RT and/or QM. What I want to say here is: physics has a
long way to go before understanding nature in its essence
and unpredictability may be a nice word for ignorance.>

The problem that physicists are having is that both RT and
QM 'work' very well insofar as their predictions are
concerned. The famous Copenhagen interpretation of QM says
that there is no deep or underlying reality. What you see
is exactly what you get. This is being very practical, and
makes no aattempt to explain what is going on (i.e., is
non-theoretical). Many physicists are also theorists, and
they are trying to put together a theory that will explain
all of the observered facts. David Bohm is probably the
closest to theosophy than the others. But the majority of
physicists still refuse theories and models, and stick with
Bohr's Copenhagen interpretation. But you are right - there
is yet no theory or working model that will unify both QM
and RT.

But I am not at all sure that unpredictibility of chaos is
caused by ignorance. QM clearly says that ignorance has
nothing to do with quantum uncertainty. There is an occult
law that says human beings must function within certain
limits. The name of any limitation was poetically called a
Ring-Pass-Not. I think that there is a Ring-Pass-Not
downward into particles, and also upward into the cosmos.
We human beings are hemmed in by our own ignorance, yes, but
also by reality itself.

Part of the problem here is one of scale. In the quantum
world, there is no uncertainty wierdness going on. There is
no probability waves. Each quantum object moves along
according to Schrodinger's wave equation, which is linear.
However, when we move the information obtained at the
quantum level up to our macroscopic level, then relativity
and chance come into play. The moving or translation of
information from the quantum level to our everyday level,
"collapses" the wave function of the object being observed.
 It is this collapse of the wave function that causes all of
the problems that perplex the physicists. For the benefit
of some readers who may not know, one of the interpretations
of this collapse, is the parallel worlds theory which says
that new worlds branch off from ours all the time, and that
an infinite number of worlds (and thus possibilities for
experience) exist. Nick Herbert lists 8 possible theories,
all of which explain the quantum facts (QUANTUM REALITY:
BEYOND THE NEW PHYSICS, Anchor Press). Roger Penrose also
discusses this in some detail in his THE EMPEROR'S NEW MIND
(Penquin has a new paperback edition out).

Martin: < As I understand theosophy only two types of humans
can do this: 1.sorcerors and 2.Mahatmas, etc.>

Gee, I hope not. I know a lot of people who have lucid
dreams, and/or who can control their dreams, and thus are
self-conscious on the astral plane. None are sorcerors, and
I don't think any are Mahatmas either. I have had dreams
where I begin where I left off in a former dream, and so my
sense of the past is what happened to me in that former
dream. Is this past karma acting on the astral plane?

Martin: < One doesn't jump from a state of ignorance into
nirvana.. Rather it is a stepwise process, involving several
steps of initiations.>

Agreed. Initiation is a very good word for it.

Martin: <Maybe, maybe not. The first person to really
explain the rising of free will out of unpredictability has
yet to show up (ie, i'm not aware of a completely consistent
theory about this) Free will exists because of
transcendence of mind beyond space-time limitations (IMO).>

Let me quote to you from Professor A. B. Cambel: "Chaos per
se is neither good nor bad. Under certain circumstances it
may lead to the unexpected failure of a bridge or a glitch
in the operation of a computer system, or it may endanger a
living organism. Chaos may also be beneficial. First, it
can serve as a marker, warning us about an impending
possibility, thereby giving us an opportunity to bring a
situation under control. Second, just as order can
deteriorate into chaos, chaos can lead to order. this has
been explained by Professor H. Haken, the founder of the
Stuttgart School of Synergetics, by Nobelist Ilya Prigogine,
and by the urbanologist Jane Jacobs. the concept of free
will is related to chaos. I am referring, of course, to
chaos in the technical sense, not to the word that we
carelessly toss around in our daily conversations when we
complain about disorganization... " (APPLIED CHAOS THEORY,
Academic Press).

The quote is given only to show that modern scientists are
at last recognizing that order alone is detrimental to all
life. Order alone leads to stagnation. Only by destroying
old things, can new things come about. This is the old
Brhama-Vishnu-Siva (creator, maintainer, & destroyer) triple
deity in operation today under new names.

Chaos (the Hindu Siva and the Egyptian Set) is the polar
opposite of order. Modern science has discovered an age-old
adage that both are required for living beings to exist.
Order, by itself, sets permanent patterns to all things,
leaving no room to grow. Order itself results in
predestination. Chaos allows for free will. I am not only
speaking here in the sense of human consciousness etc., but
rather in a more general sense of free will - the ability of
anything to grow or change.

Now let me quote from David Ruelle who says "Our freedom of
choice, actually, is often illusory ... In brief, what
allows our free will to be a meaningful notion is the
complexity of the universe or, more precisely, our own
complexity" (CHANCE AND CHAOS). He sees the problem of free
will as one which probably cannot be answered. You can
assume free will as an inherent spiritual attribute and go
from there, or you can assume chaos allows for choices and
take that route. But whichever way you go depends upon your
initial assumptions.

Martin: <Free will leads to the breaking of states of
equilibrium and the establishment of a new equilibrium,
isn't it?>

Or, is it that breaking the states of equilibrium leads to
free will? Who can say?

Martin: <Is unpredictability the working of the One Life in
nature? Is it the working of mind beyond space-time
limitations projected _in_ space-time, setting up new
conditions? (How I would love to have a theory about the
Laya centers..)>

Yes and yes. HPB already gave us a theory of Laya centers,
so I don't know what you mean here. A Laya center is simply
a tunnel or connecting pathway from any one cosmic plane to
an adjacent plane. We go through one every time we nap.

 Jerry S.