Theos-Talk Archives (January 1999 Message tl00004)

Part two:

David Walker wrote:

  Dear Friends,

  This is the second piece by Dr. Ruben Feldman-Gonzalez recalling
  his dialogues with Krishnamurti.

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  Untie the Ocean
  (Intimate dialogues with Krishnamurti)
  Memorized after the encounter--not recorded on audiotape

  I met Krishnamurti on March the 23rd 1975 in San Francisco,
  California. I have already written about that. My last name is
  Feldman Gonzalez but Krishnamurti addressed me only as Dr.
  Gonzalez.

  March 24, 1975 (Huntington Hotel - San Francisco, California)

  Krishnamurti: Sorry, I made you wait. I was doing some Hatha Yoga.

  Ruben:        No problem. Thank you for receiving me again. I would
  like to discuss the fact that you are the instructor
  of the world (or the Second Coming).

  Krishnamurti: You worry about the irrelevant.

  Ruben:        It is relevant for me, because if you are the
  Instructor of the World, then I want to be an
  apostle.

  Krishnamurti: There are no more apostles, Dr. Gonzalez. It is of
  critical urgency that human beings change radically.
  They have to detach themselves from the content of
  mankind's consciousness, they have to live without
  touching the stream of growing vulgarity and
  violence. Egocentric activity has to end, the desire
  for profit, power and prestige. One needs to learn to
  live psychologically alone, that is to be content
  without depending on anybody or anything.

  Ruben:        That they detach themselves from the content of
  mankind's consciousness?... then, how does one live?

  Krishnamurti: You don't become comatose, you don't enter into a
  drug or alcohol induced trance, you don't live in a
  state of hypnosis, nor asleep even while awake. You
  live in complete attention. Are you aware that
  observation is attention?

  Ruben:        Fundamental action.

  Krishnamurti: Observation is action. To observe totally doesn't
  mean to be negligent nor socially indifferent. If
  you observe totally, each one of your actions changes
  in nature. You free yourself from the choking grip
  of traditional memory and you also start to think
  sanely and freely. So there is total observation and
  new thought and action.

  (We spent a long time in silence)

  Ruben:        Are you greater than Jesus?

  Krishnamurti: Do you want me to say "yes"?

  Ruben:        Tell me what do you think?

  Krishnamurti: Mankind is not the same. In the last 2000 years there
  have been three wars every year in the world and
  there has been a consequent degradation of human
  beings, the son of humanity can not be the same.

  Ruben:        You are talking of the Son of Man (with capital
  letters) aren't you? You are talking of the Greek
  "uios tou antropon" (the son of man). Aren't you?

  Krishnamurti: The son of humanity is today the son of a degraded
  mankind. Then... what do you do?

  Ruben:        I listen to Krishnamurti.

  Krishnamurti: For how long?

  Ruben:        Until I understand and radical change occurs.

  Krishnamurti: Be a light to yourself. Stop procrastination. Throw
  away the content of consciousness. There has to be
  pure consciousness, pure awareness, pure listening.

  Ruben:        When I asked you whether I could speak publicly you
  said, "you speak".

  Krishnamurti: You speak. "That" is not only for you.

  Ruben:        Can you tell me more about talking to people about
  all this?

  Krishnamurti: You talk and expect no-thing.

  (LONG PAUSE)  (In vital silence) Krishnamurti had said "no-thing",
  he had not said "nothing".

  Krishnamurti: It's time for lunch Dr. Gonzalez.

  March 25, 1975
  (Hotel Huntington, San Francisco, California)

  Krishnamurti: Good morning Dr. Gonzalez.

  Ruben:        Good morning.

  Krishnamurti: I guess you have some questions, right?

  Ruben:        You told me two days ago that you'll never die in an
  aircraft, what is it that makes you feel protected?

  Krishnamurti: That.

  Ruben:        O.K. Please, tell me about That (Or the Other).

  Krishnamurti: You can see That in action, but you can't talk about
  it.

  (LONG PAUSE)  (In complete silence)

  Ruben:        You already know that some of my friends disappeared
  in Argentina. Sometimes I feel deep sorrow for
  Argentina and for the rest of the world. How come so
  much horror?

  Krishnamurti: You can be free of all conditioning and then you'll
  be free of sorrow. When you are not an Argentinian
  anymore you'll be able to do more for mankind and
  even for Argentina. I was born in India. I had an
  English passport. When India declared its
  independence from England I asked for an Indian
  passport. Since then I have great problems to get
  visas when I travel around, but I'm not English nor
  Hindu. I'm a human being.

  Ruben:        You are a very special human being. You are easy to
  love.

  Krishnamurti: I admit I'm different, but the transformation that
  has occurred in me can occur in any other human
  being. And nobody needs Krishnmurti or Dr. Ruben for
  that radical transformation, which is so necessary,
  to occur.

  Ruben:        Maybe not, but a serious dialogue helps.

  Krishnamurti: With no guru. Dialogue without gurus.

  Ruben:        Could we say that you are being my guru without us
  wanting it and that I'm being your guru without it
  being my purpose?

  Krishnamurti: Then there is a serious dialogue. You and I are
  seeing together the same thing at the same time. The
  most repugnant thing is to prostrate yourself to
  another human being and adore him or her.

  (LONG PAUSE)  (In vibrant silence)

  Ruben:        Someone told me you sometimes even faint out of sheer
  physical pain... What is that?

  Krishnamurti: I call it "the process" but I don't understand it nor
  want to. I leave all the explanations about "the
  process", healing, and clairvoyance to doctors like
  yourself (laughing).

  Ruben:        I'd like you to tell me how to heal. I mean healing
  in its pristine and complete sense.

  Krishnamurti: Again Dr. speaking (Long pause) I prepared tea for
  you the other day. You found it bitter and left it.
  I had to ask you to finish it. You still have
  predilections, Dr. Gonzalez.

  Ruben:        So, to heal (with capital letters) you need to have
  no predilections.

  Krishnamurti: No, no. It's necessary not to have predilections.
  Period. If you're content for something you're not
  content.

  (LONG PAUSE)

  Ruben:        Would you summarize the teaching in only one
  sentence?

  Krishnamurti: Attempt without effort to live with death in
  futureless silence.

  Ruben:        It sounds absurd.

  Krishnamurti: Some time ago, in 1972, I spent a full morning with
  That without leaving my bed. I was completely quiet,
  before doing my Hatha yoga (only physical yoga, just
  to keep a flexible body)... that was like a flame in
  the center of immensity. And the center of immensity
  was my brain. Do you understand?

  Ruben:        Yes.

  (LONG PAUSE)

  Krishnamurti: Then, what are you waiting for?

  Ruben:        What? Are you by any chance saying that That is ready
  for me right now?

  Krishnamurti: That's right. But you are too sad. What a waste!
  Then, what are you waiting for?

  Ruben:        I want to understand that sentence: "Die in silence
  without future". I think it would be better to say
  "attempt without effort to live in peace in
  futureless silence".

  Krishnamurti: No. Death is the end of all you are afraid to loose:
  your attachments, your memory, your disappeared
  friends, your prestige as a children's surgeon. All
  that is the content of your consciousness. Can you
  get rid of it right now, now that you're young and
  healthy and not wait for 50 years for it to crumble
  by itself? It's easy for me to die.

  Ruben:        Saint Paul said: "I die every day".

  Krishnamurti: Paul said "I die every day" and Dr. Gonzalez repeats
  what Paul says and nothing at all happens.

  Ruben:        You're more of a surgeon than I am.

  Krishnamurti: Dr. Gonzalez, your brain has been as it is for the
  last million years. For how long will it be like
  that? Will you go to bed tonight with that brain of
  yours as it always has been? Habit, sorrow, anger,
  etc.?

  Ruben:        I wouldn't be here if I wanted to go to bed with this
  brain as it is. Nevertheless, I know I shouldn't
  accept what you say just blindly. I have to
  experience it. Would you be able to facilitate the
  experience of that which may transform my brain and
  my life?

  Krishnamurti: If I was so stupid as to facilitate it, then all I
  say would become a theory or a technique, like so
  many others. You have to do it yourself, Dr.
  Gonzalez. Climb to the summit and look, or do you
  prefer to go to bed and beg me to describe it to
  you? Would you be satisfied with my description?
  Then you have no substance, then you are a second-
  hand human being.

  (PAUSE)

  Ruben:        How does mediocrity end?

  Krishnamurti: As you get rid of the contents of human
  consciousness, will you get rid of all word?

  Ruben:        Without saying "Krishnamurti is talking to me".

  Krishnamurti: Or he who listens is a "respectable Dr." You simply
  listen totally in pure silence.

  Ruben:        Nevertheless, even with no words, I'll be able to
  talk meaningfully from deep silence.

  Krishnamurti: For the first time, quite sir. The word God is not
  God.

  Ruben:        Will it help to stop sex with my wife? (*)

  Krishnamurti: Dr. Gonzalez, if you love, you love your wife, then
  you do what you will and there is beauty in what
  you do. Don't worry about sex, do it or don't. Now,
  let's be silent for a while because Mr. and Mrs.
  Lillifelt will be here soon. We will have to talk,
  because you know well Dr. Gonzalez, that I will not
  live forever. Perhaps ten years more and the chap
  will be gone.

  COMMENTS

  (*) The relationship with my wife ended three years later when she
  left our house, which I immediately got rid of. Ever since then I
  live in the desert without securing my future.

  The meeting followed the dialogue but I have already written about
  it.

  Krishnmurti died almost exactly ten years later.