Theos-Talk Archives (November 1998 Message tl00047)

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   =20
    >IMMORTALITY -- of course this cannot be proved objectively, only by =
thinking hard about it.  It is neither Hindu nor Buddhist.>
    =20
    The problem is that most people think of immortality as time ticking =
on forever
    and that is wishful thinking.
    =20
    >Theosophy embraces not only these two but also all the rst of the =
great world religions and philosophies -- makes them impersonal and =
shows that they all originate from one source.>
    =20
    Theosophy, as I and those other religions are concerned, embraces =
nothing.=20
    It simply picks out those things it likes best from all the world's =
religions and discards
    what it doesn't like (much the same as I do myself). Why do you =
suppose the
    world's religions have yet to embrace Theosophy?
    =20
    =20
    >UNCERTAINTY -- UNCERTAINTY  I agree that they are a pair.   On the =
other hand we cannot read our own future, but we seem to muddle through =
those daily problems pretty well.>
    =20
    The future is a realm of possibilities or probabilities that can be =
read=20
    only statistically. "Muddle" is a pretty good way of putting it.
    =20
    =20
    >JUDGMENTS    -- Those concerning myself are agreeably subjective.  =
But I would not try to attempt or make the judging of another a =
practice.  The surface of all living is limited.  Only each person knows =
in his/her heart-of-heart what their motives are.>
    =20
    Glad to hear you say this.
    =20
    > THE INNER SELF --    each has to do this for themselves.  If we =
consider that all Theosphy offers are the propositions we might use if =
we want to, and, in addition lends the weight of testimony in regard to =
their application then we may find value in theosophy.  But we are all =
free to go and take up either our own way of thinking or to study and =
apply any other system.  >
    =20
    Well, I certainly can't argue with any of this. Good. But what you=20
    say here kinda conflicts with your past use of "genuine Theosophy"
    or "original Theosophy" which implies a more dogmatic approach.
    =20
    >The only reason that I read and contribute to these talks is that I =
have found something in Theosophy that  is useful for me.  I share it in =
the hope tha others like you will respond and so we will all learn more =
together.  Of course my interpretation of what HPB says is my own, but I =
try also to impesonalize it and universalize it so that it is not too =
heavily charged with my opinions.>
    =20
    I hope that we are all doing this.
    =20
    KARMA  --  My view is that every physical action (thought, feeling, =
etc.) has its moral (ethical) and everlasting effect. And that these =
effects return to those who generate them in time.  I would say that by =
wronging anyone I would wrong myself as well as the rest of mankind -- =
in the long run.
    [DALLAS ]=20
      =20
   =20
    Please think about what you are saying here. I know that this is
    the Theosophical exoteric "party line" but it is really a terrible =
notion.
    Any rational thought on this idea will conclude that the Wheel of
    Life will turn forever and that there is no escape. If every act =
must
    be repaid in kind, then we will always and forever have to return.
    This is NOT the message of Buddhism, nor the message of
    Vedanta, nor of Taoism (and I thought Theosophy embraced these
    religions?).  Buddhism, Hinduism, and Taoism all teach the
    possibility of ending karma and of transcending the Wheel of
    Life. This is really the "Good News" of the East -- not the doctrine
    of karma and reincarnation which are almost viewed as sin. For=20
    reasons best known to herself, HPB emphasized Karma and=20
    Reincarnation as doctrines and de-emphasized their transcendence.
    Anyway, in order for transcendence to be possible at all, the awful
    notion that every act must be repaid in kind can't be true. It may
    seem to be true sometimes, but logically it can't be. There is a
    logical flaw in the eye-for-an-eye teaching. I believe that Jesus
    saw through this flaw and emphasized compassion and forgiveness
    as the way of transcendence. How? Because compassion and
    forgiveness are powerful enough, if sincere, to actually sever
    karmic ties.
    =20
    Jerry S.=20

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<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
    size=3D3>&gt;IMMORTALITY -- of course this cannot be proved =
objectively, only=20
    by thinking hard about it.&nbsp; It is neither Hindu nor=20
    Buddhist.&gt;</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
    size=3D3></FONT></FONT></SPAN><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>The problem is that most people think of=20
    immortality as time ticking on forever</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>and that is wishful =
thinking.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT face=3DArial><FONT =
size=3D3><FONT=20
    color=3D#800000></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN><FONT =
color=3D#800000><FONT=20
    size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
    size=3D3>&gt;Theosophy embraces not only these two but also all the =
rst of the=20
    great world religions and philosophies -- makes them impersonal and =
shows=20
    that they all originate from one =
source.&gt;</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
    size=3D3></FONT></FONT></SPAN><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>Theosophy, as I and those other religions =
are=20
    concerned, embraces nothing. </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>It simply picks out those things it likes =
best from=20
    all the world's religions and discards</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>what it doesn't like (much the same as I =
do=20
    myself). Why do you suppose the</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>world's religions have yet to embrace=20
    Theosophy?</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
    size=3D3></FONT></FONT></SPAN><FONT size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
    size=3D3>&gt;UNCERTAINTY -- UNCERTAINTY&nbsp; I agree that they are =
a=20
    pair.&nbsp;&nbsp; On the other hand we cannot read our own future, =
but we=20
    seem to muddle through those daily problems pretty=20
    well.&gt;</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
    size=3D3></FONT></FONT></SPAN><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#800000>The future is a realm of =
possibilities=20
    or probabilities that can be read </FONT></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#800000>only statistically. =
&quot;Muddle&quot;=20
    is a pretty good way of putting it.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000 face=3D"" size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
    size=3D3>&gt;JUDGMENTS&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Those concerning myself =
are=20
    agreeably subjective.&nbsp; But I would not try to attempt or make =
the=20
    judging of another <FONT color=3D#000080>a practice.&nbsp; The =
surface of all=20
    living is limited.&nbsp; Only each person knows in his/her =
heart-of-heart=20
    what their motives are.&gt;</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
    size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000080></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN><FONT=20
    size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>Glad to hear you say this.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
    color=3D#000080><FONT size=3D3></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN><FONT=20
    size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
    size=3D3>&gt; THE INNER SELF --&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; each has to do =
this for=20
    themselves.&nbsp; If we consider that all Theosphy offers are the=20
    propositions we might use if we want to, and, in addition lends the =
weight=20
    of testimony in regard to their application then we may find value =
in=20
    theosophy.&nbsp; But we are all free to go and take up either our =
own way of=20
    thinking or to study and apply any other system.&nbsp;=20
    &gt;</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
    size=3D3></FONT></FONT></SPAN><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>Well, I certainly can't argue with any of =
this.=20
    Good. But what you </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>say here kinda conflicts with your past =
use of=20
    &quot;genuine Theosophy&quot;</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>or &quot;original Theosophy&quot; which =
implies a=20
    more dogmatic approach.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
    size=3D3></FONT></FONT></SPAN><FONT size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
    size=3D3>&gt;The only reason that I read and contribute to these =
talks is that=20
    I have found something in Theosophy tha</FONT></FONT></SPAN><FONT=20
    size=3D3><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 =
face=3DArial><SPAN=20
    class=3D970042010-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080=20
    face=3DArial>t&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN> is useful for me.&nbsp; I share =
it in the=20
    hope tha others like you will respond and so we will all learn more=20
    together.&nbsp; Of course my interpretation of what HPB says is my =
own, but=20
    I try also to impesonalize it and universalize it so that it is not =
too=20
    heavily charged with my opinions.&gt;</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D3><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT =
color=3D#000080=20
    face=3DArial></FONT></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>I hope that we are all doing =
this.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
    size=3D3></FONT></FONT></SPAN><FONT size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
    size=3D3>KARMA&nbsp; --&nbsp; My view is that every physical action =
(thought,=20
    feeling, etc.) has its moral (ethical) and everlasting effect. And =
that=20
    these effects return to those who generate them in time.&nbsp; I =
would say=20
    that by wronging anyone I would wrong myself as well as the r<SPAN=20
    class=3D970042010-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 =
face=3DArial>e</FONT></SPAN>st of=20
    mankind -- in the long run.<BR><SPAN =
class=3D970042010-24111998><FONT=20
    color=3D#000080 face=3DArial>[DALLAS=20
    ]&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN><FONT =
size=3D3></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 =
face=3DArial><SPAN=20
    class=3D970042010-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial><FONT=20
    size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></SPAN><FONT size=3D3><SPAN=20
    class=3D970042010-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080=20
    face=3DArial>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D970042010-24111998><FONT=20
    color=3D#000080 face=3DArial> =
</FONT></SPAN><BR></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000><FONT size=3D3>Please think about what =
you are saying=20
    here. I know that this is</FONT></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000><FONT size=3D3></FONT></FONT><FONT =
size=3D3><FONT=20
    color=3D#800000></FONT></FONT><FONT color=3D#800000>the Theosophical =
exoteric=20
    &quot;party line&quot; but it is really a terrible =
notion.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>Any rational thought on this idea will =
conclude=20
    that the Wheel of</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>Life will turn forever and that there is =
no escape.=20
    If every act must</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>be repaid in kind, then we will always =
and forever=20
    have to return.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>This is NOT the message of Buddhism, nor =
the=20
    message of</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>Vedanta, nor of Taoism (and I thought =
Theosophy=20
    embraced these</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>religions?).&nbsp; Buddhism, Hinduism, =
and Taoism=20
    all teach the</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>possibility of ending karma and of =
transcending the=20
    Wheel of</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>Life. This is really the &quot;Good =
News&quot; of=20
    the East -- not the doctrine</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>of karma and reincarnation which are =
almost viewed=20
    as sin. For </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>reasons best known to herself, =
</FONT><FONT=20
    color=3D#800000>HPB emphasized Karma and </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>Reincarnation as doctrines and =
</FONT><FONT=20
    color=3D#800000>de-emphasized their transcendence.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>Anyway, in order for transcendence to be =
possible=20
    at all, the awful</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>notion that every act must be repaid in =
kind can't=20
    be true. It may</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>seem to be true sometimes, but logically =
it can't=20
    be. There is a</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>logical flaw in the eye-for-an-eye =
teaching. I=20
    believe that Jesus</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>saw through this flaw and emphasized =
compassion and=20
    forgiveness</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>as the way of transcendence. How? Because =

    compassion and</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>forgiveness are powerful enough, if =
sincere, to=20
    actually sever</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#800000>karmic ties.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 =
face=3DArial><SPAN=20
    class=3D970042010-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial><FONT=20
    size=3D3></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT =
size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D3>Jerry =
S.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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