Theos-Talk Archives (June 1998 Message tl00060)

Dallas,

Concerning some of the points you made I beleive that Theosophy is the
Wisdom of the Gods. Ie Advice for Initiates whilst in the stae of unity
consciousness or god-hood. A lit of symbolism becomes apparent when in this
deep meditative state where union with the source is achieved.

However to remain with the source would mean a bodily death. This is
however another of my insane ramblings and as such should be taking with a
pince of salt.

Darren

At 11:09 PM 6/5/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 06:59:59 -0700
>From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" <dalval@nwc.net>
>To: <theos-l@vnet.net>
>Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1548 THEOSOPHY FOR THE MASSES
>Message-ID: <007a01bd90da$92ba6000$03e78ccc@nwc.net>
>
>June 5th 1998
>
>Dear Doss:
>
>The report that you make on June 1st concerning THEOSOPHY FOR THE
>MASSES as Krishnamurti viewed it is valuable for us all.
>
>To my mind there are two things to consider:
>
>1.    Motive.  Why does one feel an attraction for Theosophy ?
>and, What does one expect to get out of its study ?
>
>2.    Ability.  Do we KNOW what Theosophy is ? and if we do not,
>then how can we promulgate it accurately ?  How can we meet
>people where they are and assist with information that they can
>actually use were they now are ?
>
>It is apparent that Krishnaji had the motive that was the most
>generous, and wanted all to profit from the virtues and benefits
>that a theosophical knowledge gives.  He realized that all were
>not at the same level, and had to be met at the level where they
>were.  Those who know more have to descend to the level of the
>pupil to help him advance.  The mind has to be able to return to
>the "child-state it had lost," without however, loosing its
>wisdom.
>
>Some have an immediate sympathy for those virtues.  They then
>look to the doctrines and the metaphysics that Theosophy offers.
>Those provide, when grasped, the reasons that underlie the
>virtues.
>
>Again, virtues in Theosophy, are not different from those which
>are common to all philosophies and religions, and which are
>innate in everyone without exception.  Theosophy gives
>explanations for them.  If one takes for a basis the idea that
>Theosophy is universal and fundamental to every great religion,
>it does away with any "elitism."
>
>How is it that one can travel to any place on the face of the
>earth ?  No one knows the actual "laws" of the countries that
>they visit.  But if one behaves decently and honestly with the
>people one meets, one does not get into trouble with them or with
>their "laws."
>
>It has always seemed to me that Humanity is one, but somehow it
>has allowed itself to get divided into "haves," and "have-nots."
>Into the "intellectual," and the "practical."  Into those who
>think they are an "elite," and those who think they "cannot
>think."  Into those who
>"play," and those who "work."  And so on, endlessly ... all, are
>useless considerations.  Each human is essentially "themselves."
>
>It is self-knowledge that is important.  Theosophy (as anyone who
>reads the KEY TO THEOSOPHY can find out) deals with the knowledge
>of the HIGHER SELF and its 6 vehicles.  And when HPB has
>considered and explained what our constitution is, she proceeds
>to show what Practical Theosophy  is.  As to the basic
>metaphysics, she says :
>
>Every human is a 7-fold being.  A SPIRIT with 6 vehicles:  this
>Spirit lives a "separate" life on Earth so as to be of assistance
>in the progress of many younger intelligences ("lives" which are
>in effect its "children").  No being in the whole Universe is
>"unconscious."  Every being has an "intelligence" of its own.
>The level of that intelligence marks its particular stage on the
>ladder of evolution.  In the KEY TO THEOSOPHY, HPB observes these
>are :
>
>1.    Wisdom -- "Buddhi" -- discrimination based on an enormous
>individual antiquity and a memory of those experiences impacted
>in the eternal Akasa that surrounds us all.
>
>By nature it is Universal, Giving, Compassionate, Wise and helps
>all being around us.  It Knows the Law of the Universe - Karma.
>It is the "vehicle" of the Spiritual RAY that is present in each
>being and is receiving (as an independent mind) its final
>instruction in the human kingdom.  In mankind it learns to be
>powerfully cooperative.   To the extent that it is cooperative,
>its powers grow.  Harmlessness to others is the key.  It is not
>"unconscious."
>
>2.    "Manas" -- the Mind and the Mind Powers:  reason, memory,
>perception, anticipation (inference), fancy (misconception).
>
>The Mind (as a unit of power) has the ability to ally itself with
>Wisdom -- and therefore can be called in that condition:
>"virtuous."  Or, the "Higher Mind."   One of the great qualities
>of the Higher Mind is that it considers universal ideas and is
>"impersonal."  It values the "Heart."  This is cooperation as a
>matter of observation and practice.
>
>Or it can ally itself with isolation, a selfishness produced by
>the "Desire Nature."  In which case, it is called the "Lower
>Mind."  And in that second state (and we are all in that
>condition, when awake) it isolates itself and is "selfish."  It
>is the base for egotism.
>
>At some point the "Lower Mind" realizes that virtue is superior
>to "vice." It becomes aware of the "moral equation."  It
>perceives that "brotherhood" is better than loyalties that
>"separate," and are placed by it on religion, family, nation, and
>itself as "survival" -- in fact that universality is the rule of
>all true life.
>
>3.    "Kama" -- Desire & passions.  Wants and needs. The feelings
>of a thousand kinds ( as separate from the mental powers which
>give them personal life ).
>
>This quality arises from the perfection of that which in animals
>is called "instinct."  It focuses on the preservation of the
>present "self."  It considers itself as the only important
>thing -- and this gives rise to the false concept of "elitism."
>[ It seeks others of like nature, to join together, and form a
>self-defensive cadre -- and we have sects, creeds, political
>parties, etc. ]
>
>As a faculty "desire-Kama" cannot look into the future (as hope)
>without the help of the mind faculties of "anticipation and
>memory."  When these two are joined we have the "Lower Mind."
>The "personality" which is intensely "selfish" "hopes" it will be
>able to enjoy in the future whatever it selects as actions that
>will lead it to a situation of pleasure and ease.  This operates
>in us all the time.
>
>4.    We find that there is a universal "Life-principle" which
>animates us all, everywhere.  Vitality is one of its names its
>names, and over the space of a day, we "loose" it. and recuperate
>its energy by a change of activity, rest, sleep, eating,
>drinking, etc... The vitality works in the body, and in the
>instinctual, feeling nature as well as the mind.  It is
>universal, all beings of whatever kind bathe in it.
>
>5.    The "Astral Body"  and "the "causal" formative side of
>Nature.  All beings have an "astral" or pattern body.  This
>underlies the physical body.  It is called recently, the
>"bio-genetic-field."  On this electro-magnetic lattice the
>physical molecules and cells, etc. align themselves.
>
>It is here that the  many "atomic elements" form their basic
>sub-atomic patterns, and cause their properties to become
>uniform. It is at this level that we find "randomness" in action,
>Here is the root of all "beings" of the Universe -- the
>infinitely "small" are mirrors of the vast whole.   But what we
>think of as "randomness" is the operation of selective
>intelligence at that level.
>
>Place yourself mentally on a very high building (like the empire
>State Building) and look down at the activity in the streets
>below, the flow of traffic of all kinds -- cars, people, busses,
>and their moving and stopping, the interchange at intersections
>for apparently no reason, the way vehicles and people avoid each
>others or meet for a while only to move on again.  To the
>observer, given no base of similarity the whole pattern appears
>random -- fractals in motion.  It is only when we place ourselves
>at their level that we see the "cause" for all the activity and
>the rules that regulate it.
>
>6.    The physical body.  The "carrier" of the Mind.  The field
>where "feeling, passion and desire work."  Constantly changing,
>as we know it, but retaining the faculty of continuity with only
>very slow changes over a life-time.
>
>What holds it together and directs the molecules and cells to
>their appropriate places ?  What is it that makes for the entire
>cooperative system that our physical body is ?  How does it
>happen that we, the "Intelligence" that uses the body comes to
>reside in it ?  Why do we need to pay relatively so little
>attention to our bodies ?  Respiration, the beating of our hearts
>and circulation of blood, digestion, nutrient distribution and
>waste disposal systems all operate without our conscious
>awareness.  Why ?  How ?
>
>These 6 "principles" are the tools of the 7th the Synthesizing
>Unit.  The SPIRIT in man, called ATMA -- and, as a "ray" it is
>one with the Universal SPIRIT.
>
>It, the Spirit within, is the basis for Brotherhood.  There is no
>"elitism" in the spirit, only a vast and all inclusive
>benevolence, that some have called "Ananda" or "bliss." It is the
>alternate to the isolation of selfishness, isolation and
>"passion."
>
>With this in mind, how can a knowledgeable Theosophist be
>otherwise than practical and ready to serve ?
>
>Mankind is of many stages of learning.  From the childhood of a
>burgeoning mind, to the all-inclusive wisdom of a Great Master of
>Wisdom.  Everything is a united system of learning.  Hence we
>have reincarnation as a process.  The spirit that is each human
>in its essence never "dies."  But it continues as the educational
>center for the rest of the elements that make up our personality.
>
>The monitor that assists every one is WITHIN.  It is the Higher
>Self.
>It is the conjoined UNIT:  Atma-Buddhi-Manas.
>
>Now let me consider for a moment the statement that Mr. Judge
>made concerning the "imitating" of the Masters.
>
>The reason is to be found in the above Theosophical explanation.
>Once that we know what the Nature of the Master's wisdom is and
>that it is a potential that we also have we ought to emulate,
>copy, imitate their ways in our life, if we can.
>
>It is a life lived according to Karma, according to the work of
>the Higher Mind, according to benevolence, harmony, tolerance,
>generosity and sharing with others.  It is life with a purpose.
>
>Some find they can study with ease.  Others find it difficult and
>have to struggle to make their personality do this.  it is
>uniting with others and not remaining in isolation.  It is the
>practice of virtue all the time.
>
>Some have great "heart."  They do not want to study and they
>reach out to others to help wherever they may be.  They are, in
>effect, by tolerance and generosity, Theosophists unaware.  But
>they need to know how and why they do this spontaneously.  They
>need to "cultivate" the mind.
>
>Some help with logic and explanations, others help practically.
>"Hands on," is operating in either case.  One is mental and the
>other is practical.  Both are needed.  The hands and the heart
>have to work together.  this as humanity, is what we are all
>learning to do.  We are the cells and the molecules of the GREAT
>UNIVERSAL MAN.  As independent intelligences, we are learning
>where we ought to be and what we ought to do.  We do not abase
>ourselves, but we become more vibrantly aware of what we CAN DO.
>The place is irrelevant.  We are a necessary part of the whole
>and we will always be needed.
>
>In between "wisdom" and "foolishness" is the mind and the
>personality.  Here is where "elitism" springs up.  Some employ
>their mental abilities to think about "words," and some think
>about "ideas."
>Some worry about their position and how others "regard them;"
>and they forget to do the work they are needed for.  True
>priorities are reversed and general harmony is upset.
>
>In steps the Law of Karma to bring a return to balance, and we
>have an educative (not a punitive) effect that focuses on the
>person who made the disturbance, with a view to getting them to
>use their minds and observe how they were the cause of that
>problem to begin with.
>Thus, only the person or being who created the problem can now
>solve it.
>
>Orientalists and specialists who read ancient tongues and delve
>into ancient manuscripts are constantly confronted with words.
>How is the reader to interpret them ?  Is the ancient context the
>same as our modern one ?  Can we be impersonal and detached ?
>This is the constant problem of a translator.  How to translate
>accurately without loosing the sense of the original writer.
>
>Words are the envelopes for the "inner sense."  To bring that
>meaning into new words is a battle.  Some are convinced that
>there is an "old Theosophy," and what they would like to see a
>more familiar idiom used.  They would they think, feel more
>comfortable if a "new way of expressing it" is used.  Fine.  But,
>without a knowledge of the "old theosophy," how are they to
>become interpreters ?
>
>People are in a hurry.  They do not realize that all changes
>begin interiorly.  As any change, to be valuable, begins with
>instruction and study, so Theosophy needs to be studied.  To be
>time conserving, then, the only logical place is to go to the
>SOURCES of Theosophy and for us that means :  H.P.BLAVATSKY.
>
>The value of Theosophy, as I see it, is that  it is broad enough
>to provide reasons for virtuous living, and, it gives an
>understanding of meaning -- if one broadens the mind to include
>the implication of the words used.  I realize that this is very
>vague.  But there is no other way of expressing it.
>
>The analyst seeks to derive interior meaning from the quality and
>nature of the actual words used.  In dong this he may loose the
>perspective of the over-all picture.
>
>Is this not what Krishnamurthi was trying to explain ?
>
>Best wishes,            Dallas.
>
>======================================
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: theos-l@vnet.net <theos-l@vnet.net>
>To: Multiple recipients of list <theos-l@vnet.net>
>Date: Tuesday, June 02, 1998 8:07 PM
>Subject: THEOS-L digest 1548
>
>
>>     THEOS-L Digest 1548
>>
>>Topics covered in this issue include:
>>
>>  1) theosophy for the masses and for the intellectuals
>> by M K Ramadoss <ramadoss@eden.com>
>
>
>                                                        SNIP  --
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 02:27:21 +0100
>From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" <guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk>
>To: theos-l@vnet.net
>Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1548 THEOSOPHY FOR THE MASSES
>Message-ID: <S8ei0DA5rJe1Ewti@nellie2.demon.co.uk>
>
>W. Dallas TenBroeck <dalval@nwc.net> writes
>> Those who know more have to descend to the level of the
>>pupil to help him advance.
>
>Those who know more have to revisit the level of the pupil to help
>her/him understand and learn.  It's not a hierarchy nor a power game.
>Those who know more, in esoteric matters, *want* to help those who
>know less as a matter of course.
>
>>  The mind has to be able to return t>
>Dear Dallas:
>
>You have wonderfully presented the outline of Theosophy. Each one of us is
>different and with different levels of understanding and widely varying
>interests. So long as we keep in our minds our eager interest/passion in
>helping others at all times and in all things we do, whatever approach we
>take, we will find better understanding and better opportunities. If we are
>not always looking, how are we to find opportunities when they stare at us.
>
>Thanks
>
>...doss
>
>
>
>At 07:50 PM 6/5/1998 -0400, you wrote:
>>June 5th 1998
>>
>>Dear Doss:
>>
>>The report that you make on June 1st concerning THEOSOPHY FOR THE
>>MASSES as Krishnamurti viewed it is valuable for us all.
>>
>>To my mind there are two things to consider:
>>
>>1.    Motive.  Why does one feel an attraction for Theosophy ?
>>and, What does one expect to get out of its study ?
>>> big clip<<<<
>
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