Theos-Talk Archives (September 1997 Message tl00392)

For Jerry S.: who wrote: <Dennis, my whole point with collective karma is
that it is virtually indistinguishable from "God's Will."  If you don't think
so, then please tell me the difference> and I reply: IMHO the difference is
very simple to explain.  Collective karma exists and "God's Will" (in the
classical Christian sense which I assume is the sense in which you used it)
.. does not.  It seems obvious to me that there is a collective
consciousness (i.e. the sum total of all individual consciousness) and we can
even go a step further and call this consciousness "the collective will" or,
since we are Gods ("in your law, I said, ye are Gods" [John 10:34 (NKJV)],
perhaps even "Gods' Will."  But this is a far cry from the conventional
Christian concept that envisions some exalted being with divine foreknowledge
(which they refer to as "God's Will") and who, being omniscient and
infallible, always has His Will fulfilled.  I am a firm believer in free will
(at our current level of enlightenment) and I believe with equal firmness
that it and the classical "God's Will" or Divine Foreknowledge (IMO the two
terms are synonymous) are incompatible.  That is, either one can exist ...
but not both.  Since, as I say, I am convinced that free will exists --- it
must logically follow that I am equally convinced that "God's Will" does not.
You also wrote: <When you say that karma covers everything, then you are
echoing the Christian idea that every leaf that falls is in God's loving
hands.  What's the difference?  We have no control over either God's Will or
collective karma>  And I reply: indeed I am (echoing the Christian idea).  In
fact, two of my favorite Bible verses are Mathew 10:29 and 30 which read,
respectively: "Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them
shall not fall to the ground without your father." [and] " ...the very hairs
of your head are all numbered."  But, in my view, these verses refer to a
universe that is individually and collectively aware of itself and all that
transpires within it; not a universe running on "full auto-pilot" with no way
for us to control it.  To be a little more specific, all of us have some
measure of control over individual karma (this has been discussed at some
length in earlier Digests).  It then follows that we must also have some
measure of collective control over collective karma (not in how it mani-fests
but in how we respond to its manifestation).  You further wrote: <Personally,
the notion that I did something wrong in a past life that I am unconsciously
suffering for now is anathema to me (all animal and child training agrees
that punishment or reward must be immediate and consistent in order for
learning to take place)> And I reply: my experience has been that the
universe simply is not set up that way, Jerry.  Consider, to cite just one
example out of thousands, smoking.  There are people in their fifties and
sixties who are coming down with lung cancer now even though some of them
gave up smoking twenty or more years ago.  Your rationale would suggest that
they should have received their punishment (cancer) immediately as a result
of their action (heavy smoking) and not many decades later. But the universe,
in my view,  cares not at all about your rationale or mine.  It is the way
that it is and we must learn and accept its parameters... and suffer the
consequences in the process.  Finally, you wrote: <Also, the idea that God is
in full control of what I see is going on in this world is anathema to me (I
think I could do a better job)>  And I reply: The only "God" in this world is
US, Jerry.  If you think you can do a better job, then do it.  This same
advice applies to everyone.  As for the laws of the universe (karma,
evolution, reincarnation, gravity, electromagnetism etc.), we are not going
to be able to get them changed or repealed.  And perhaps that is just as
well.  When I was much younger I thought, perhaps like you, that the universe
was not running very well.  But, subsequently, I gained a lot of experience
(and, hopefully, a little enlightenment) ... and I have been amazed at how
much better the universe seemed to run after I did so.  In fact, I have
finally reached the conclusion (mentioned in earlier posts) that, if I could
just manage to reach full enlightenment, I would want the universe to run
EXACTLY the way it runs now.  After all, I have concluded that this is, in
fact, a Perfect Universe... and I see no reason to try and alter perfection.
 But ... please keep this very controversial (see earlier Digests) statement
in context.  Remember my "car" analogy?  I said that I had a perfect car
(i.e. it perfectly displayed all of the attributes that it should display,
given the conditions under which it existed).  I did NOT say that any drivers
"could take their hands off the steering wheel" because the car would steer
itself.  Fact is, if you "take your hands off the steering wheel," my car or
any other car will only go where the laws of physics take it (which is
generally off the road).  A small part of the perfection of our universe,
Jerry, is that it seems to have "a steering wheel" and invites (indeed,
requires) our involvement in its great journey through the cosmos.  NAMASTE
 -- Dennis