Theos-Talk Archives (June 1996 Message tl00786)

Hello!

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* Forwarded by Macnev Uri
* From : Kay Ziatz
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Subject: Origen


For: <ABRANTES@serv.peb.ufrj.br>

 Hello!

A> Observe that Origen never speak of reincarnation but pre existence of souls
 Note that original text of "DE PRINCIPIIS" no longer exists.
You've probably read translation made by Rufin, who "corrected"
Origens works, as he said himself, excluding most heretic thoughts.
But there are fragments which still exist in greek that more
srtictly say about reincarnation. (Some qoutes below are from
Rufins text, too).

"And like those who're dying in this world because of separation
of body & soul get different places in hell, corresponding to
their deeds, similiar way, maybe, those who, so to speak, die
there [in hell], go down to this world's hell.
.
Each of those who comes down to earth, corresponding to what he
earned before or a place which he took there, should be born here
in a different countries, among different nations...
It occures often by this that Israely man gets into Skythes, and a
poor Egyptian moved to Iudea."
(IV,23)

  Even more, Origen believed in manvantaras:

"We believe that after destroying of this world there will be
a new one, like before this world there were other worlds."
(III, 5, 3).

Fotios who was probaply a last man which has read "De principiis" in
full greek original writes:
"Have read Origens books de Principiis. First of them is on Father,
Son & Holy Spirit. Here Origen heretizes very much, saying that Son
is created by Father, and a Holy Spirit - by Son, and Fathers acti-
on spreads on all existing, Sons - only on thinking beings, & acti-
on of Holy Spirit spreads only on saved ones. He says other, too -
very meaningless and full of dishonest - rambling about reincarna-
tions*, about stars which have souls and about many other things li-
ke this."

(he writes that a stars earned contemporary star-bodies because their
 previous actions, too)
______
* Here stands a russian word that may me directly translated as
"soultransmigrations"

So, if a christian, which may be even not acquainted with eastern
teachings have found there doctrine of reincarntion, it proves
that in original text it was clearly outlined, because Fotios
had no reason to "guess" it like we do - a contrary, he wasn't
agree with these & other conceprions of Origen.

Note that Origen makes difference between soul, mind and sprirt,
as theosophists do.
  "Because of that with infinite care we have to investigate:
will souls stop being souls, when saved and reach bliss life?
As Lord & Savior has come to find & save ruined for it will
cease to be ruined, then a soul, too, which is ruined, and
for which salvation Lord has come, maybe stop being a soul.
.
Mind, because of falling, became a soul, and contrary, soul,
learning Good & correcting itself, becomes a mind."
(II.8.3) (From quotes made by st. Ieronim)

"It's seen from this that a soul is a middle state between a week
flesh and good spirit" (II.8.4)

 From above follows that indeed, Origen didn't write about Cardec-style
"reincarnation of soul", and it makes some people think that he denies
reincarnation at all.
He writes that animals have souls, too, which means that "soul"
(psykhe) in his system is something like kama-rupa.

W/best regards, Konstantin Zaitzev  2:5020/360.4 Fidonet

Address for personal replies:
Kay_Ziatz%p4.f360.n5020.z2.fidonet.org@gate.phantom.ru