Theos-Talk Archives (June 1996 Message tl00040)

Continued discussion on karma, reincarnation and religion between Alexis
and Martin (Euser).
Brackets [], inserted in your previous reply, indicate questions or
comments by me.

Martin>
>One point remains a bit obscure to me, and that's your view on reincarnation.
>You say on p. 24, that 'death isn't (a recurring incident)'.

Alexis>No, it isn't Martin Euler [Euser] will die but once,
 because Martin Euler [Euser] as an individual will live but once.

Martin comments: as a persona [mask, outer vehicle] yes


Alexis> As I see it it isn't individual personalities
[lower four principles?]
that "reincarnate" but rather the intrinsic (to the Cosmos) evolving
never-physical immortal intelligence [jiva?] that incarnates serially
but not consequentially [i.e. as a consequence of previous incarnations
of this jiva?].
In other words the intrinsic spirit manifests itself by way
of a physical intelligence [brain-mind?]  and learns and expands it's
awareness by way of that manifestation. In the course of that manifestation,
the physical
personality (Martin Euler) becomes an energy field (force field) in being.
Energy once created is never lost [right], ergo, when the personality "dies" (by
which I mean leaves the physical shell) it continues as an
energy-field-in-being and is therefore a independent spirit in its own
right.

Martin comments:
Are you referring to the lower four principles here or what?


Alexis> What it is, however, is what was the mediating factor between the
Intrinsic Evolving Intelligence [jiva?], and [between jiva and what?]
I call that the Virtual Intelligence entity. It probably best corresponds
to metaphysics's "Higher Mind", or at least that's the thing that comes
closest to it.

Martin comments: This independent spirit in its own right, that's what you
would call Manas, the fifth principle? If so, it is consistent so far with
the view of HPB and GdP, I think.

Martin (previously)>You explain this by saying that an individual human
>being continues as
>an independant spirit in it's own right in the 'post-mortem' state.


Martin: actually I had in mind to ask you *explicitly* whether this
individual human being that continues as an independant spirit in its own
right *reincarnates* or not. Does it manifest in a persona, does it take
a lower set of four principles again in order to reincarnate or not?
Does this independant spirit have anything to do with the previous
tencencies it had in its vehicle (persona) in its last incarnations,
*if* it reincarnates?If not, what happens to these previous tendencies,
characteristics (on earthly, astral, mental planes)?


Martin (previously)>One of the questions one could ask is: what about karma,
 what about the>effects of deeds that are not yet equilibrized. How else
then by reincarnation
>could these effects or consequences be settled? Please explain to me!


Alexis>
That's a good question and of course I can see why you'd ask it. But, I must
respond by saying that I have a different view of Karma than that which is
taught either by Theosophy or Brahminism or Buddhism. The problem as I see
it is that the universe doesn't function in a retributive manner and by any
other name "karma" is retributive.



Martin comments: HPB speaks of Karma-Nemesis. But I don't believe in some
great being who punishes the poor sinners either, BUT I *do* believe in an
intrinsic corrigating intelligence , which is essentially one's Self..


Alexis>The universe itself, is an entirely value-free information system and
nothing at all which an individual does while in the physical state is going
to have more than an attitudinal effect on their future.

Martin comments:What about an Adolf Hitler? Will there be no correction
for this perverted 'intelligence' ??
Can we learn all our lessons in one lifetime?
We can develop only a small part of all our potentials in one lifetime.
What about little children who die ; surely the spirit of these children
will reincarnate? So much to learn..



Alexis>A person, because of the things that they do, and because of the way
that they think, and because of WHAT they think, create an environment
that colours and flavours their personal future.

Agreed.

Alexis>But that is the way an individual influences their post-mortem future,
 [and where may that be? couldn't that be on earth again?]
 it has nothing at all to do with the universal intelligence field.

Martin comments: This seems to dismiss all notion of the interrelatedness
of cosmos and humans. When I say that ethics is built-in in the structure
of the universe, how do you react then?


Alexis>There is no judgement, there is no retribution, "seeking of equilibrium",
there is only a milieu that every individual creates for themselves.

Martin comments:and what are the factors that play a role in this creating
a milieu for themselves? You say: energy is not lost, and that's true,
so what about the energy of a deed on earth that impresses itself
on the astral light, what about the tendencies of the Manas pertaining
to this earth? That's energy too. What happens with it?
I submit that only by having one's mind fixed in a state of consciousness
that is beyond the working of the 'pairs of opposites' (conform the
Bhagavad Gita) one is able to neutralize and equilibrize all tendencies
set up, evoked in interaction, etc. on this earth. If one cannot do that
one will inevitably be drawn back to this earth, psychomagnetically
drawn to an appropriate environment, appropriate for the reincarnating
entity. As long as the thirst for life on this earth is not finished
one will be drawn back to it. ALL the grand philosophies, including Plato's,
Pythagoras', Buddha's, etc,etc. affirm this.
You will have to do a lot of explaining before it will satisfy my mind.
(not that the current theories of karma and reincarnation explain
everything - these theories are far from complete, I think, but that's
a totally different thing for now)



Alexis>The only think that matters, the only thing in the universe that
matters, is
intelligence. It is how that intelligence is utilized and how it processes
and stores information, that is critical. That's what the Universe is all
about, the infinitization of intelligence, and the processing and storing of
information for the use of that intelligence. All information is valid. All
information, and experience is the major source of information, is needful
to the universal data-bank.

Martin comments: if you include the perception of love, growth of love for
all beings, sure. This spawns another question: how long does this growth
of love, of perception of unity continue? This question has to do with
the concept of evolution and the nature of initiations. An intricate
question in my opinion.

Alexis>What an individual human being does with their personal information
data-bank, matters only within their personal paradigm. It does not matter
in the slightest, within the universal paradigm.



Martin comments: but there are vast layers between  a personal paradigm and
the universal paradigm, like family and group paradigms, national paradigms
('freedom of speech' :)).
It seems that you totally ignore the consequences of one's actions on others.
After all, one doesn't live alone in the universe. It surely mattered
to the Jews what Hitler did with his personal paradigm..




Alexis>Now as to "reincarnation" as the intrinsic evolving intelligence
 manifests serially but non-consequentially, each succeeding manifestation,
and I must emphasize that they are not inter-connected except by way of the
Intrinsic evolving intelligence [Jiva, not Manas I take it], is, nonetheless,
 a consequence of all the previous manifestations and so is "flavoured"
or "coloured" by them. But each of them is unique and individual and so is
the "last in line".
"Karma", to me, is simply one of religion's "little control mechanisms".
It's a way to make people "behave" according to the dictates of religion and
more important than that, the dictates of the people that run the religion.



Martin comments: in theosophy we (at least I do) have a different view
of karma. It is not something *outside* oneself. That would be absurd
indeed. It is inside onself but has to do with the interconnectedness
of all beings. One Akasha penetrates all, and holds all information,
BUT this information is individualized within each being.


Martin (previously)>Also, how would you account for the vast differences
 between people, unequal opportunities, if not by karma?

Alexis>Well, of course there's the incarnational process I just described,
there's
genetics, there's environmental factors, and things like Nationality and
Ethnicity and skin colour, but most of all, it's "the roll of the dice".
People don't like it, I know, and would rather believe they were born blind
to pay off some old debt. But I am afraid that's not it, some people who are
born blind, are that way because their Mother had syphilis.



Martin comments: this last example pertains to my mentioning that
the theories on karma and reincarnation are not completely exposed
in theosophy or any system whatsoever. You can add babies from
heroine-addicted mothers, Softenon-babies, etc.
The 'roll of the dice' theory seems a bit too mechanical to me however.
If such accidents happen, I would rather think of some recompensation
in another life. 'Roll of the dice' is inherently injust. Where does
this leave the idea of justice? Do you throw that away?




Martin (prev.)>
>Now, about religion, that's quite a story! I agree that most of religions
>have become a bit of an empty shell. But what about finding the esoteric
>meanings of what's left of value in them? What do you think about that?

Alexis>I have spent more than thirty years in the second object pursuit of
the study and comparison of this planet's religions. My conclusion? They are
ALL utterly empty shells.such esoteric meaning as any of them may once have
contained is long lost, and everything of value is lost with them.


Martin comments: so, you dismiss Blavatsky's writing about esoteric meanings
in religions. She has spend a mighty lot of time on that: Isis Unveiled,
Secret Doctrine, Key to Theosophy, and other writings as well.


Alexis>Religion today has only one series of goals,that is the attainment
and maintenance of power, control, and profit, over and at the expense of
those who accrue to the religion in question. The human race would be well
 shed of the lot of them!


Martin comments: you confuse what *people* do with religion as a legitimation
for the power/control games with religion itself. There's a mighty difference
in that.


Alexis>They are unorthodox, but they are my views. I take total
responsibility for them.


Martin comments: I bet you do!


These are some starting questions only. Fasten your seat-belt!
It will be a tough drive..


Martin