Theos-Talk Archives (May 1996 Message tl01001)

Kim
>The evidence will speak for itself. It already did. Your initial
>objection which caught my eye was the following:
>"Therefore, I find two striking differences between HPB's
>principles and CWL's bodies.  The first is that the CWL's
>bodies are found on the seven solar planes while HPB's are on
>the seven sub-planes of the solar physical plane.

Kim
>The error concern your understanding of "the system of HPB".There
>are no such thing as "bodies" on the sub-planes of the solar
>system

JHE
I'm afraid that you are reading my sentence out of context to the
previous sentence, as well as out of context to my original
conversation with Jerry S.  Therefore you are mis-reading it.
Therefore, If you take my second sentence in context with the preceding
sentence (and not assume that I'm a complete moron :-)), It should be quite
clear that my referent to HPB is "principles" (mentioned in the preceding
sentence) and my referent to CWL is "bodies" (mentioned in both
sentences).  So please feel free to insert the word "principles"
next to "HPB" in the second sentence for clarity (and redundancy).
If this is still confusing, then I suggest that you take the
trouble to review my original discussion with Jerry S. in order to
get the complete context of my point.  There, you will find that I
took great pains to demonstrate to Jerry that CWL's "bodies" are
not necessarily the same as HPB's bodies, and HPB's "bodies" are
certainly not the same as her principles (as Jerry had at first
insisted).

Kim
   I certainly do not consider you anything but highly intelligent, Jerry.
I am
afraid you partly missed my reference to bodies - it would apply even if
the word principle was inserted. The 3 lower principles are associated with
bodies in the normal sense of the word. I have followed your suggestion and
found your objections in the original post -

JHE
1)  Therefore, I find two striking differences between
HPB's principles and CWL's bodies.  The first is that the CWL's
bodies are found on the seven solar planes while HPB's are on the
seven sub-planes of the solar physical plane

2)>  HPB, on the other hand, does not confound the solar
>planes and the principles, because the principles in her system
>do not occupy any but the lowest solar plane.

3) Every plane and subplane has its principles, but the principles
belonging to the human constitution are on the subplanes of the
solar physical plane

4) But the human principles are only on the subplanes of
the solar physical.  If they were on all of the solar planes, we
would have the consciousness of the solar system.

5) Of course, just because the human principles
are not on the solar planes does not mean that there are no
correspondences between them.

Kim
   It is VERY clear that you do not consider the principles as being
on the planes of the solar system but on the sub-planes. From my
previous posts I have made my position very clear on this (supported with
evidence and explanations which should satisfy even Daniel). I often refer
myself to the divisions of consciousness as principles - but not as human
principles.

Kim
>It is completely inconceivable that the physical planet
>and the physical body should be on different planes of existence
>(you can call this Kim's axiom :-)

JHE
Did I ever suggest otherwise?  Where?

Kim
It would be the obvious consequence of human principles on the sub-planes
of the solar system and planets on the planes.

----------------------------------
Jerry
So far, your nomenclature has been primarily a vernacular, and not
necessarily those used in the ~SD~  (e.g. your use of the terms:
"universal planes"; "solar physical body" etc.) If these terms were
the standard ones in the ~SD~, then I wouldn't need to ask for your
nomenclature.  Since you have begun to spell out your terminology,
I would prefer that we continue this process rather than changing
over to a "numerical" system.

Kim
   Vernacular!  :-)) . I am certainly not "changing" over to a numerical
system, from my first posting here I have made an effort always to use a
number alongside a term (chosen from several different terminologies I
confess).
    "Prakriti, the lowest plane of macrocosmic consciousness, represents
the "body" of the solar systems.." is from CW XII p. 659.
     "Planes of the Universe is from p. 656
   Vernacular!  Before you object - we were talking about HPB terms before
the SD was mentioned. HPB terms were sufficient, you said - so I am using
vernacular HPB terms. I can probably find some vernacular SD terms as well.

   You asked me to designate the general terms for universal/Kosmic planes,
etc. and you distinctly asked me not to enumerate the planes. Futhermore I
said I would wait for your photocopies and asked you to explain you ideas
on certain subjects.(see below). I will probably make a diagram later.
--------------------------------------
Jerry
By the way, will you be answering my last
(assumptions) post, so that I can do the summary as I had
suggested?

Kim
    We can not both have the last word (our thread could go on forever!) I
distinctly said: Those are my last words on the subject. But by all means
summarise.
----------------------------------------------
Jerry (on TSR side-thread)
"Though I tried to accommodate you by answering the issues you raised, I
never considered it relevant to the discussion"

Kim
The issues will be apparent from the beginning of this excursion cited
below.

Kim
>>The idea of the planes of our solar system as being the lowest
>>part of seven universal planes. This is clearly described by
>>Subba Row and apparent from the ES papers of HPB.............

JHE
>      Subba Row in his Lectures on the Bhagavad Gita 1886-87
>clearly stated that he rejected HPB's seven principle
>classification because it is a "very unscientific and misleading
>one" and because the "seven principles do not correspond to any
>lines of cleavage, so to speak in the constitution of man" (6).
>He also stated that a "considerable portion" of HPB's system is
>"almost unintelligible to Hindu minds" therefore he advocated the
>"time honored" classification of "four principles" which are
>associated with the "upadhis" and are further associated with
>"four distinct states of consciousness" (7-8).

Kim
   The above (read alongside your other statements regarding A "new" system
of TSR) made a distinct impression on me. Naturally it can be "background
info" but with the words "clearly stated that he rejected.."  it certainly
conveyed a certain meaning to me, read in the context of what I said. I
read it as a comment upon my words.
-----------------------------------------------------
JHE
>>>>Then for the planes of the solar system, you call them "the
>>>>solar physical body"?  By "7 globes of a chain" you mean both
>>>>the earth chain and the sun chain?
Kim
>>>We must identify your sun chain before we go any further. Please
>>>give me a reference. I can think of at least three concepts
>>>which may be designated as such.

JHE
>>I mean the Sun's chain of globes.  Please see the above diagram.

Kim
>A HPB reference, please Jerry.

JHE
SD I, p 200 diagrams the planes for the earth's chain of globes.
The sun we see will be on that fourth plane (the same plane as our
globe D earth, that's why we see it) and the six other globes will
be on the three planes above it.  What do you call those four
planes?

Kim
   I wonder where you got this from. It has now confused me in 6
exchanges. Could you give me a reference for your solar chain and 7 globes
-  SD II p. 239-240 states the number as 4 - the central spritual sun and
the 3 secondary suns. They would obviously be on the 4 lower planes of the
solar system on the same planes as the planets. Note: SD I p. 200 (which
only treats of the Earth Chain) distinctly says that the SD often use
Kosmos only as meaning the solar system (as in this case).
---------------------------------------------
JHE
And what is the "extension" of our solar system?

Kim
The obvious.


JHE
>>>>Then for the planes of the solar system, you call them "the
>>>>solar physical body"?  By "7 globes of a chain" you mean both
>>>>the earth chain and the sun chain?

Kim
A HPB vernacular term again. By 7 globes of a chain I mean 7 globes of
a planetary chain like Earth.


In friendship,

Kim