Theos-Talk Archives (May 1996 Message tl00422)

>> both works are described as secret, we would have to expect them to >>
be not extant nor even widely distributed and known in Tibet.

Rich:
>Yes and no.  HPB says that her stanzas of Dzyan are taken from the >books
of "Kiu-Te" which are "owned by every monastery in Tibet."

   Yes, but unfortunately the stanzas are said to belong to the "secret"
parts of the books of "Kiu-te", and again HPB also speaks of secret volumes
of "Kanjur" and "Tanjur".

>Well, as David Reigle and others have pointed out, this "Kiu-Te" is simply
>the phonetic spelling of rGyud-sDe, or "Tantra" in the Tibetan Canon.  So
>HPB is indicating that her sources for her magnum opus are simply >various
Tantras

 I agree. I have not read the book  Also a lot of volumes of the kangyur
and tengyur are designated "Gyur te", I am afraid tibetan is not my strong
side. As such we could have these works in every monastery of Tibet but
still without any clue to the whereabouts of the stanzas - they could be "a
secret tantric work". Worse, if the translation is free the tantra could
appear to be treating of fx. human principles. A learned lama would come in
handy here. Naturally we could only expect to find the tibetan version and
perhaps its name in sanskrit.

>and it is conceivable that HPB drew her Stanzas of Dyzan from there. (That
would make our work a hell of a lot harder).

 Since it is described as "many volumes" it would probably have to be
either parts of Kangyur&Tangyur (secret or not so secret) or a completely
unknown multi-volume work (or compilation of tantric sutras). HPB generally
uses a metaphysical style of translation (or rather interpretation) unknown
to (or not used by) scholars, which means that any similarity to the
stanzas could be hard to detect from a translation.

>But I would look first for HPB's Stanzas of Dzyan in the various tantras,
>particularly the "inner" and "secret" parts of Kalachakra tantra which
David
>Reigle is pointing at.

   It would at least be probable that such important works as the stanzas
would show itself as an influence or direct quotes in other works. I have
not seen this tantra, let alone the secret parts. If you go to Tibet it
would be wise to bring a camera capable of photographing tiny MSS.

>I hadn't thought of looking at Asanga's works for the origin of the Voice
of
>the Silence, which Kim suggests, but it strikes me as a very good place
>indeed to look.  I am not sure that HPB considered the Voice of the
>Silence (aka "the Book of the Golden Precepts") as secret in the same
>sense that the stanzas of Dzyan were secret (i.e. "tantra") as so it makes
>sense that it would be a rather more standard source.

   Well, what I feel is that even if there exists secret volumes, a lot of
the axioms would pop up or be treated upon in the extant works. Even if a
few sentences were found and identified it would corroborate the story of
HPB
I certainly think I would be able to get the known texts without too much
difficulty. In a few years time all such texts will no doubt be available
as e-texts which will help searching them enormously. This line of
investigation is on my list of future projects.

> Unfortunately, a lot of Asanga's stuff isn't
>translated yet, and Sanskrit is such a BITCH for me.  How 'bout you?
> Wouldn't that be a fun project for the rest of your lifetime?  Maybe a
team
>of us could tackle it slowly?

:-)  oohh, what a project. Actually I already did contemplate to do this
with a few chapters of the Mahayanasutralamkara (or rather an investigation
of the sanskrit text from a theosophical point of view). I will have to get
back on this at a later date (but I find it very, very interesting). I know
several brilliant sanskrit scholars who would love to give a helping hand
with anything but: buddhist sanskrit works (they are devout hindus). So I
would be alone, and I am presently commited to proof-reading an e-text
transliteration of Anugita (for later research) and encode the Mundaka
Upanishad. How about learning a little more sanskrit?
   Actually a team of theosophists developing linguistic capabilities and
using a scholarly approach could do wonders to theosophy. The internet will
make such a thing possible.

In friendship,

Kim