Theos-Talk Archives (April 1996 Message tl01406)

Jerry S:

>Eldon, I enjoyed your post on this.

Thanks.

>And I agree with everything except the following two paragraphs:

>> We are capable of (but not trained in) existing apart
>> from the physical body, and could function as full humans
>> minus the lowest principle, the physical body, the
>> Sthula Sarira. We would exist in our full awareness,
>> including sense perception, but not have a concrete,
>> organic anchor to call "me".

>I am not so sure that we can function "as full humans minus
>the lowest principle, the Sthula Sarira."

This is what HPB describes as the Nirmanakaya state, which
I think she mentioned in "The Inner Group Teachings."

>First of all, the Sthula sarira is not a principle, but a body.

True, if you take the esoteric enumeration of the seven
principles, running from the Auric Egg to the Linga Sharira,
leaving off the physical body as not an aspect of consciousness,
and leaving Atman off as universal and not a person's particular
consciousness.

>Secondly, we don't need a physical body to have a sense of
>identity or "me" because any body will do.

Yes, any body would do, on this or whatever plane of existence.
But when we exist in our six principles on that plane, we can
be fully conscious, including having sense perception, without
the literal body or form to represent ourselves on that plane.
So, for those capable of it, we can exist on a plane, in full
consciousness, including sense perception and the ability to
interact with others, *minus a body*.

>We can't exist on any plane without a suitable body of some
>kind, which is always used as a referment or anchor for our
>sense of identity.

Not as a fully embodied being, with all seven principles.
But we can exist as an invisible participant, in the
Nirmanakaya vesture, as six-principled beings. (When I say
"we can", of course, I don't mean the typical person, I just
mean that it is possible to do.)

When we move from an passive observer to someone with the
ability to interact with the external world, though, we need
a body of some type. This can be acquired through the normal
means of birth, childhood, growth, maturity, etc. using the
standard method of existence on that plane. Or it can be
self-created, a mayai-rupa.

>> With sufficient training, we could create an ad hoc
>> "anchor", the mayavi rupa, which would be something
>> like a self-created materialization on whatever plane
>> we would exist on.

>Here is one instance where I think you and JHE are plain wrong.

Or this is one area where the HPB/Purucker model varies from
the CWL model, which you prefer.

>You both seem to think that the mayavi-rupa is the *only*
>subtle body in town. It is not.

No, not the only non-physical body. It is possible for us to
acquire bodies on worlds on this or other planes. Those bodies
can be acquired by normal means, using the status quo of
childbirth and growth as locally defined. Or the body can be
acquired via temporary means, using super-normal powers (powers
that transcend the status quo of the birth process on the world
in question.)

>It is the one consciously created by an Adept (actually an
>Initiate can do this too) but everyone has a subtle body,
>automatically and without effort.

We have our seven principles, each composed of its own "stuff".
Mind is composed of thoughts, Kama of desires and feelings, etc.
These principles apply to our seven-principled existence here
on Globe D earth. In the after-death states, we drop our lower
principles, and are no longer connected to an external, objective
world. We then exist in the spheres of effects, that follow our
earth, a sphere of causes. These "places" are called spheres of
effects because of their entirely subjective nature. Some are
hell worlds, like kamaloka, others are heaven worlds, like
devachan (dewachan in Tibetan).

The subjective states that we go through are based upon our
natural process of exhausting and freeing ourselves of the
unspent energies in our lower principles. We are, for instance,
in kamaloka for the time necessary to exhaust our unspent-desires.

After that process of dealing with unspent energies is completed,
we're then ready for another objective existence in a sphere
of causes, either a direct return to our earth, to Globe D, or
birth on the next sphere of causes, Globe E, on a higher plane.

Until or unless we have an actual birth on Globe E, we cannot
be said to have a body on a higher plane, in the normal manner
of having bodies. An adept may temporarily exist on those
higher planes, on the spheres of causes that we know as the
Globes of our planetary chain, through mind-created forms, through
mayavi-rupas, but I suspect it would be exceedingly rare for one
to find a normal birth process and lifetime on such a world.
Basically speaking, earth (Globe D) is it for us; this is the
place where we have bodies and objective existence.

>The difference is in memory--most people forgetting all
>experiences after their return to the physical while the
>mayavi-rupa allows the brain to accept and retain memory.

I agree that most people forget their experiences during sleep,
not even remembering dreams of the previous night. But during
sleep, the usual situation is for someone to reside in the
subjective states, in the earth's spheres of effects, and not
to awaken on the next objective world, Globe E.

-- Eldon