Theos-Talk Archives (November 1995 Message tl00079)

Patrick:< Spirituality actually begins in higher manas or in terms
of planes on the higher mental plane.>

Since when??? As far as I know spirituality
begins at the fifth plane upward the Atmic which lies just
above the Abyss about which theosophist are in relative
ignorance. The upper mental is relatively formless
like a coma or dreamless sleep but is not spiritual we
usually define mental and spiritual as two separate things
Patrick.

Patrick:< The assessment as to the devitalizing and harmful
effect of channeling below this level is not based on paranoia
or fear but simply a recognition of what moves forward into
freedom and what moves backward and toward stagnation/slavery.>

This statement is not from anyone's personal experience.
It stems from too much book-learning and parroting of someone
else. You seem to see the whole planetary chain in terms of
blacks and whites. I see it all as shades of grey. I think this
is where our biggest differences lie.

Patrick:< The goal of the lower channelers is to establish a
kama-manas rapport so as to take prana and they will happily
sound "theosophical" or any other way and say accurate things
to do so. >

This is very very demeaning as well as very
condescending. Did you read the minds of these "lower
channelers" in order arrive at this remarkable conclusion?
Do you have any idea at all what "to take prana" means?
It doesn't sound like it. Let me get this straight: Lower
channelers deliberately say accurate things in order
to sound theosophical. Is this right .*.*.*...pardon me
for laughing.

In retrospect my own response above sounds demeaning
and condescending as well. Well I mean it to be toward
the subject matter but certainly not to Patrick who is only
quoting from theosophical literature as he understands
it.

Patrick:< All lower channeling results in a type
of dependency below the level of buddhi-atma and
thus works against the spiritual development of those involved.>

Where in earth did you get this idea. I find it
positively revolting disgusting crude cruel and downright
wrong. If you want we can flip it around the other way and
say that all buddhi-manas channeling is a type of
dependency and works against spiritual development
because it stiffles samadhi as the quotes Eldon gave us
in a past posting on zazen shows. All life is dependent
Patrick. You can deny it all you want but I read fear and
paranoia between all of your lines.

Patrick:< One does not need to enter an altered or
different state to higher channel - one already has a presence
of the higher qualities and simply aligns with these in complete
personal integrity and spiritual fusion.>

Here again the idea expressed is plain wrong. This
is beyond my opinion and someone else's opinion here. Every
Adept at whatever grade must raise consciousness into higher
planes in order to channel and this is by definition an altered
state of consciousness. I don't know where Patrick's information
is coming from but it is clearly from someone with little
understanding of what is going on and who is very fearful of
"lower channeling." I absolutely defy anyone to quote from
the MLs or from HPB to substantiate this posting of Patricks.
Its no wonder that people like JRC and Bee have such a
hard time in theosophical circles.

Patrick:< An Initiate is consciously immortal and can see
clearly the level of quality of any approaching entity as regards
the entire realm of kama-manas.>

I haven't a clue as to what "consciously immortal" means.
But as to the rest I agree. An initiate is one who is treading the
Path a Chela either formally or informally. In a real sense we are
all initiates on theos-l. I would like to think that we would all be able
to recognize a pleasant dream from a nightmare.

Patrick:< There is no question as to the source as this can always
be verified directly and an Initiate can be in intuitive rapport with a
Mahatma whenever there is need. >

Excuse my French but this is pure bullshit. There is
ALWAYS some question as to the source. Just how would you
set about to make such a verification -- call the Adept up on the
Adepthood hotline?

Patrick:< There is all the information that is needed already written
on the physical plane to help any of us to be Initiate.>

Every single written word is exoteric and thus distorted
and flawed. You can become an Initiate by reading and studying
yes. But you cannot become an Adept that way. The esoteric
is understood through direct experience not through reading
or study.

Sorry to come down so hard on this. And I want to thank Patrick
for posting this "theosophical" teaching on channeling because
it gives me an opportunity to rebut it. The insightful reader may
detect a tad of emotional envolvement that I have with this subject.
Thats because it is near and dear to my heart. I feel that Judge
has done us all a terrible injustice by his continual hammering
of the rightness of "higher" and the wrongness of "lower" when
it is obvious that only an Adept or high Initiate would ever be able
to tell the difference anyway. HPB throws out a few warnings in
passing and this is right and proper. But those reading Judge
come away with a warped outlook. I have to think that this was
because he was in opposition to the AB/CWL outpouring at that
time because otherwise I like and respect Judge very much.
Oh well I am leaving my soapbox and going back to my quite
room for rest.

Jerry S.