Theos-Talk Archives (October 1995 Message tl00054)

On Tue, 3 Oct 1995 Richtay@aol.com wrote:

> This whole thread of attacking Eldon is not nice. It is one thing to
> criticize dead persons, especially those who have had a large impact on
> Theosophical history (HPB, WQH, CWL, Besant, Jinarajadasa etc.) It is quite
> another to continually lambaste someone, still living, in a public forum.

Okay, I'm not nice. But I fear such a criticism, coming from you,
won't exactly keep me up nights.

> If JRC would not like to share his experiences, that is his choice. If he
> would like to share them, either on the public board or in private e-mail to
> individuals, that is also his choice.
> But to single out Eldon as the reason why certain discussions may not take
> place here strikes me as a subtle attempt to discredit Eldon and draw
> criticism to him.

Gee, perhaps I need to say it *again*: It was not just to be able
to talk about my own experiences that I was arguing ... and not just
against Eldon as an individual. It was on behalf of a growing number of
people who are using various inner abilities ... dismissed in
condescending tones as "psychic" ... and against a large thoughtform that
Eldon does articulate quite clearly -

and let's talk about "subtle attempts" shall we? Is not this post
one of those? You never accuse *me* by name, but this is "personal", is
it not? Eldon certainly has the right to voice his opinions, and he does,
and quite often, about "psychic abilities" - and *my* opinion, whether
*you* like it or not, is that the ideas Eldon voices (which are held by
far more people than Eldon) create an environment *hostile* to those
many who have a whole range of inner experiences they might begin to
share were there a more open environment. Clearly neither you nor Eldon
agree with this (or perhaps you do, but don't care).

And this is now the *fourth* time you have seen fit to "on a
public list" critisize my manner of discourse ... you, who in the opinion
of more than just myself may be one of the single most judgemental people
to have ever spoken on this list. I would suggest you look to yourself
for awhile before you begin telling others how they ought to communicate.

> One may disagree with Eldon's positions without blaming
> Eldon for events on this board, and I have to speak up for Eldon that I do
> not see him blaming others, labeling others, or in general using personal
> arguments to make his points. And Eldon certainly seems willing to engage in
> dialogue, examine his positions, etc.

No of course you do not see Eldon "labeling" others, both
because you and Eldon both seem to be interceding for one another, and
because many of his "labels" are in agreement with your labels.

> Why is it that in the "psychic powers" department the board has stooped to
> blaming, personal considerations and nastiness? I don't think it makes the
> issues and the ideas about them any clearer, rather it muddies the waters.

Say! Why don't we replace the words "psychic powers" with the
intitials "CWL"?

> Why not leave all of our names out of things, and only mention them for
> signatures and quotes? It really strikes me that personal stuff has no place
> here, and only seems to lead to enmity. I know that sounds barren, but I'm
> tired of the jibes and labels, let's just stick to the discussions at hand.

You want the path, or do you want a nice, uncomplicated purely
abstract discussion of "occultism". As *HPB* mentioned in her Esoteric
Writings, the *first* thing that happens when people actually step onto
the path is that *everything buried is thrown to the surface* -
tremendous psychological energies are unleashed ... and in general people
become an *enormous* pain in the ass. You think *I'm* nasty? Christ, I
thought you knew something about HPB ... you would have kicked *her* off
the list months ago. Have you read the Mahatma Letters? Those guys were
often *scathing*, and had no problem getting personal.

We are all adults here, and many of those here are in the middle
of withstanding the periodic internal pressures that are the first steps
of the actual path - which has very little to do with abstract
philosophy, and quite a bit to do with the transformation of the whole
human energy system.

The road to harmony is *not* through avoidance of conflict,
but through entering fully into it - in staying engaged - and having the
emotional courage to remain engaged until some final point of view, perhaps
much much larger than both individual points of view emerges out of the
discourse. This may, by the way, be one of the reasons why you seem
"young" to some on this list. Eldon and I have been, off and on, engaged
in a large dispute ... we have very *very* different conversational
styles, use terms completely differently, and hold exceedingly different
points of view - and after a month long and very intense discussion (that
has been about something far deeper than "psychic abilities") there is as
of yet only the barest beginnings of anything that might be called
resolution ... but there may *be* some much larger picture *neither* of
us as of yet grasp - that may not appear until he and I engage one
another on various different topics for several *years* ... but I believe
in staying engaged with one another we are delivering to one another
gifts that little else could ... can you perhaps grasp that possibly a
decade from now we will each consider one another to have been teachers
.. that precisely *because* of the intensity of our disputes a spiritual
bond of great beauty may be being forged? Can you grasp that what you are
objecting to is but a superficial, and almost epiphenomenal aspect of the
real debate - which is one in which both of our root paradigms are
withstanding pressure ... being pushed to expand beyond their current
limits ... and that far from being a "distraction", such stuff is at the
very core of what the actual travelling of the path *is*?

If you want to *study* the "path", keep reading the "source"
materiels, and discussing the finer points in them ... but if you
actually intend to *walk* the damn thing ... then you are going to invoke
whirlwinds of turmoil (and there are a considerable number of people on
this list that know this through terribly personal experience) ... and if
you can't even stand the discomfort of minor and fleeting personal squabbles
on the list ... then you're *really* gonna be upset when the first few
demons of your buried anger, your sublimated sexuality, or carefully hidden
judgements come raging out of your basement with fangs bared.

 -JRC