Theos-Talk Archives (June 1995 Message tl00052)

guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) writes:

Thank you for the interesting set of ideas against reincarnation.
I shall take great pleasure in providing alternative views.

> Reason One: If the reincarnation process has been going on since
> (say) Lemurian times or even earlier _and_ new souls are coming
> up from the animal kingdom all the time _and_ it takes many many
> lives to achieve perfection/nirvana or whatever name is current,
> then by now there should be no room to move on planet earth.

One important factor to consider is population size.  Various
estimates suggest that there is a fixed, large number of entities
involved in human evolution at this time.  I don't have a
reliable number, but would suggest around 8 billion for the
purposes of this discussion.  In earlier (Lemurian) times, the
world's population was much smaller -- and therefore the time
between incarnations might have been much quicker, to allow more
souls to gain embodiment--but there would be much more
competition to get a body.

Furthermore, new souls are _not_ coming up all the time.  That
particular door has been closed for a long time, and will not be
open again for another round or so, according to various sources
(not just theosophical.) By positing a fixed number of jivas,
it's feasible to consider that there is a limit to the number
that can be in incarnation at any one time.  The more there are,
the more opportunities there are to embody--but getting here is
still a tremendous privilege.

> Reason Two: If reincarnation is part of "God Plan, which is
> Evolution" [Jinarajadasa - First Principles of Theosophy, Adyar]
> and leads to a general improvement in the human race, where is
> the supporting evidence?  The human race is just as busy now at
> devising ways of its members being horrible to each other as it
> ever was, and improves the means of torture, death and
> destruction of its members on a daily basis.

This process takes a long time, and is not necessarily linear,
but more like a spiral.  There are flowerings, then periods of
decay, as civilizations rise and fall.  The suggestion of hope is
that the highest point of each sucessive civilization is higher
(in a spiritual sense, rather than materialistic one) than the
ones preceding.  This process takes a _very_ long time, but there
are signs that humanity is improving.  For example, 1,000 years
ago it was inconceivable that nations could work together to
relieve suffering -- look at the work of the United Nations now.
That's progress, in my opinion.

> Reason Three: If Karma is tied to reincarnation as an integral
> part of the plan, what kind of "justice" is it which gives us
> punishments ("karmic consequences") in this life while denying us
> the recollection of what we did wrong to deserve them?

This depends upon one's viewpoint.  At the same time, there is
mercy in denying recollection of just what kind of evil buggers
we may have been in the past, which might lead to despair and
inability to make any positive steps.  If one accepts that the
process of evolution is not actually happening to us as
personalities, but rather to that part of us which is relatively
immortal (the reincarnating self), then at that level of
consciousness, which is ordinarily denied to us in the body,
there _is_ recollection.  From that point of view, it is just.
The personality, however, is relatively unreal.  It has no
independent existence, being a transitory and rather loose
collection of skandas, drives, conditioning and habit, with a
sprinkling of whatever spiritual awareness that can make it
through from our innermost levels.  It is born, and will surely
die.  Life is fair, but it's not intended to cater to the whims
of the human and therefore limited brain consciousness.

> Reason Four: Who in their right mind would want to come back to
> the vale of tears, murder, rape, torture, hunger, disease, etc.,
> etc.?  The incentives to get perfect damn quick are all around us

My guess is that there is generally an unwillingness to return,
but the waters of Lethe (i.e.  wiping of memories past) combined
with tanha (the thirst for life experiences) combine to draw us
again into the fleshly envelope.  It's also the experience of
some that when confronted by the vale of tears, they want to try
to help.  I'm sure you feel that way.  Staying in some devachanic
realm surrounded by happy memories is all very well, and no doubt
some entities stay a very long time indeed, but as we progress
there grows a feeling that we are not separate from the
sufferings of our fellow human beings, and must therefore come
into incarnation to try to help those struggling in the darkness.
We are therefore _all_ murderers, rapists, torturers, in so much
as we partake of the one life.  Think of the Boddhisattva vow.

> If I kill and get life in jail, then I know what I am doing time
> for.  If I reincarnate and "do time," why am I not told why?

Why not try to find out who is the "I" that asks this question?

> much to believe that the spiritual essences we are alleged to be
> are to be tied for interminable periods to a small speck of dust

Again, this is a matter of perspective.  It's certainly possible
that exception students, or graduates, are given the choice of
moving into other worlds.  I question however your idea of
"interminable." Surely a few hundred thousand years in one set of
globes isn't too much to ask when we're immortal?

> guess (just a guess) is that there's a lot of room out there for
> our spiritual essences to play in, and that we may well do just
> that, given half a chance - after all, that's how we behave down
> here!

Everything I have learned in theosophy would tend to support your
conclusion, however we have to graduate from kindergarten before
we can go and "play" in the wider universe.  There are probably a
billion worlds where the One Life is manifesting--of course there
will be opportunities for each of us to learn, love and serve in
unimagineable ways.  For now, let's remember we have work to do
now, on this world, in this life--but try to enter the Silence
where such distinctions are unimportant.

cheers
Paul Gillingwater