Art Gregory and his "Spirit Guides" Speculation
Oct 07, 1999 06:58 AM
by D.Caldwell/M.Graye
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Art Gregory and his "Spirit Guides" Speculation
Art Gregory (see his email BELOW) keeps insisting that HPB's Masters =
were
nothing but "spirit guides". Yet when was the last
time you saw a "spirit guide" outdoors on a horse? Or a "spirit
guide" outdoors in broad daylight or being seen by a group of people not =
at
a
seance? I could multiple the examples.
Compare Art's "interpretation" with the actual testimonial evidence. =
See
http://sites.netscape.net/dhcblainfo/paranormal.htm#Appendix
and http://www.blavatsky.net/gen/refute/caldwell/johnson1.htm
Three examples will suffice for this forum.
Col. Olcott wrote:
Example 1:
"This same Brother once visited me in the flesh at Bombay, coming in =
full
day light, and on horseback. He had me called by a servant into the =
front
room of H.P.B.'s bungalow (she being at the time in the other bungalow
talking with those who were there). He [Morya] came to scold me roundly =
for
something I had done in T.S. matters, and as H.P.B. was also to blame, =
he
telegraphed to her to come, that is to say, he turned his face and =
extended
his finger in the direction of the place she was in. She came over at =
once
with a rush, and seeing him dropped to her knees and paid him reverence. =
My
voice and his had been heard by those in the other bungalow, but only =
H.P.B.
and I, and the servant saw him." (Extract from a letter written by =
Colonel
Olcott to A.O. Hume on Sept. 30, 1881. Quoted in Hints On Esoteric
Theosophy, No. 1, 1882, p. 80.)
Example 2:
"Describing a visit to the Golden Temple in Amritsar on 23 October 1880,
[Olcott]. . . writes: '...at a shrine where the swords, sharp steel =
discs,
coats of mail, and other warlike weapons of the Sikh warrior priests are
exposed to view in charge of the akalis, I was greeted, to my surprise =
and
joy, with a loving smile by one of the Masters, who for the moment was
figuring among the guardians, and who gave each of us a fresh rose, with =
a
blessing in his eyes....' [Old Diary Leaves, volume 2, pp. 254-255, 1974
printing.]"
Example 3 from the testimony of William T. Brown:
"...Lahore has a special interest, because there we saw, in his own =
physical
body, Mahatma Koot Hoomi himself. On the afternoon of the 19th November
[1883], I saw the Master in broad daylight, and recognized him. . . ."
Art, in these three cases, do you really believe that these
Masters are nothing but "spirit guides"?
K. Paul Johnson's "theories" appear more substantial than your
"interpretation"!!!
You keep insisting that you want us to "put childish things away and =
truly
embrace Satya, the Truth."
You might heed your own words and reconsider whether your own =
interpretation
of "spirit guides" is nothing but a "childish" explanation of your own
making.
Art, please look at the DETAILS of the testimonies about the Masters =
instead
of glossing over them in your attempt to consign these so-called
"shadowy beings to the shadows from which they emerged."
Hopefully other readers of these emails will first look at the facts and
pay less attention to pre-conceived theories such as your spirit guide
one.
OBTW, Olcott's testimony that you related below did not concern
Master KH as you contend. His testimony related to Master M. Again
details are important.
Daniel Caldwell
Art Gregory's original email is below:
> From Art Gregory lgregory@discover.net
> Subject: Will the real Mahatma please stand up?
It is not my purpose to attack the good work of Col. Olcott. His
contributions have been made and are historically verifiable =
particularly
to the Buddhist community. As a man he had shortcomings as all of us =
must
and history has already judged his efforts as the first President of the
Society. Let his memory remain for the positive contributions he made.
As for the psychic episodes reported one need but cite the quotation =
below
in which he wrote of the some twenty times the Master KH was seen in the
Astral body. His further remark that he saw the Master KH more than =
three
or four times "but not under circumstances where it would be evidence =
for
others," is telling enough for me. Recall that both Olcott and Madame
Blavatsky were avid Spiritualists and very familiar with seances and =
such
phenomena as "spiritual guides." Such guides are commonplace in
spiritualist literature and not that unusual.
>MR. MYERS: Have you seen him three or four times in the flesh?
>COLONEL OLCOTT: Yes, more than that, but not under circumstances where =
it
>would be evidence for others.
>MR. MYERS: And about how many times [have you seen him] in the astral =
body?
>COLONEL OLCOTT: Oh, at least 15 or 20 times.
The mistake here is to confuse the "spirit guides" common in =
Spiritualism
with true in the flesh masters and to give the "spirit guides" a greater
place than the verifiable, historical Masters, thus devaluating the very
legitimate contributions of historical real Masters. As an example I =
will
cite the practise of the daily life of the Ashram of Mahatma Gandhi:
>Many highly educated persons joined his ashram to learn yoga under him. =
They
>thought that Gandhiji would teach them yoga in some mysterious manner, =
in a
>private room. They thought that he would teach them pranayama, =
meditation,
>awakening of the kundalini, etc. They were asked to clean the latrines
>first.
>Gandhiji used to mend his own shoes. He himself used to grind the =
flour. He
>would take upon himself the work of others when they were unable to do =
their
>allotted portion of work. When an educated person, a new ashramite, =
felt shy
>to do grinding work, Gandhiji himself would do the work in front of =
him. And
>then the man would willingly do the work the next day.
>Try to do daily as many virtuous actions as possible. When you go to =
sleep
>have a review of your day's actions. Mark them in your spiritual diary.
>Performance of virtuous actions is the beginning of spiritual life.
I can cite numerous examples of historically verifiable instances of
Masters in the flesh educating humanity and teaching the soul that makes
the interaction of KH and Col. Olcott cited by others as mere romantic
fantasies compared to true life episodes of instruction and learning.
Examples of this can be found in the late life of Leo Tolstoy wherein he
adopted the style of life of the serfs and personally educated them to =
read
and write; The example of Vinobe Bhave who single handedly built a =
movement
intyhe 1950's of the greatest voluntary contribution of land to the
poorest, landless people of India; The above example and the principles =
of
Mahatma Gandhi in his Satya Agraha movement; The countles and little =
known
Jaina saints who have lived lives dedicated to total Ahimsa; there are =
of
course many others.
The deeper question to me is as follows: How much longer will =
theosophists
cling to the phantoms of the distant past on entering the new millenium?
Isn't it time to put childish things away and truly embrace Satya, the
Truth, that the theosophical movement may once again assume some beacon =
of
leadership light in the next century?
Or will we continue to tell tired old tales to each other, waisting
valuable energy and time. I'm for the option of consigning these =
spectral
missives and shadowy beings to the shadows from which they emerged. Let
these past shadowy beings be an interesting historical note in the
development of a world movement for truth and let us forge ahead daring =
to
experiment and daring to question being in the forefront of a new world
brotherhood.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Art Gregory and his "Spirit Guides"=20
Speculation<BR><BR>Art Gregory (see his email BELOW) keeps insisting =
that HPB's=20
Masters were<BR>nothing but "spirit guides". Yet when was the =
last<BR>time=20
you saw a "spirit guide" outdoors on a horse? Or a =
"spirit<BR>guide"=20
outdoors in broad daylight or being seen by a group of people not=20
at<BR>a<BR>seance? I could multiple the examples.<BR><BR>Compare =
Art's=20
"interpretation" with the actual testimonial evidence. See<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://sites.netscape.net/dhcblainfo/paranormal.htm#Appendix";>htt=
p://sites.netscape.net/dhcblainfo/paranormal.htm#Appendix</A><BR>and=20
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.blavatsky.net/gen/refute/caldwell/johnson1.htm";>http:/=
/www.blavatsky.net/gen/refute/caldwell/johnson1.htm</A><BR><BR>Three=20
examples will suffice for this forum.<BR><BR>Col. Olcott =
wrote:<BR><BR>Example=20
1:<BR><BR>"This same Brother once visited me in the flesh at Bombay, =
coming in=20
full<BR>day light, and on horseback. He had me called by a servant into =
the=20
front<BR>room of H.P.B.'s bungalow (she being at the time in the other=20
bungalow<BR>talking with those who were there). He [Morya] came to scold =
me=20
roundly for<BR>something I had done in T.S. matters, and as H.P.B. was =
also to=20
blame, he<BR>telegraphed to her to come, that is to say, he turned his =
face and=20
extended<BR>his finger in the direction of the place she was in. She =
came over=20
at once<BR>with a rush, and seeing him dropped to her knees and paid him =
reverence. My<BR>voice and his had been heard by those in the other =
bungalow,=20
but only H.P.B.<BR>and I, and the servant saw him." (Extract from a =
letter=20
written by Colonel<BR>Olcott to A.O. Hume on Sept. 30, 1881. Quoted in =
Hints On=20
Esoteric<BR>Theosophy, No. 1, 1882, p. 80.)<BR><BR>Example =
2:<BR><BR>"Describing=20
a visit to the Golden Temple in Amritsar on 23 October =
1880,<BR>[Olcott]. . .=20
writes: '...at a shrine where the swords, sharp steel discs,<BR>coats of =
mail,=20
and other warlike weapons of the Sikh warrior priests are<BR>exposed to =
view in=20
charge of the akalis, I was greeted, to my surprise and<BR>joy, with a =
loving=20
smile by one of the Masters, who for the moment was<BR>figuring among =
the=20
guardians, and who gave each of us a fresh rose, with a<BR>blessing in =
his=20
eyes....' [Old Diary Leaves, volume 2, pp. 254-255,=20
1974<BR>printing.]"<BR><BR><BR>Example 3 from the testimony of William =
T.=20
Brown:<BR><BR>"...Lahore has a special interest, because there we saw, =
in his=20
own physical<BR>body, Mahatma Koot Hoomi himself. On the afternoon of =
the 19th=20
November<BR>[1883], I saw the Master in broad daylight, and recognized =
him. . .=20
."<BR><BR><BR>Art, in these three cases, do you really believe that=20
these<BR>Masters are nothing but "spirit guides"?<BR><BR>K. Paul =
Johnson's=20
"theories" appear more substantial than =
your<BR>"interpretation"!!!<BR><BR>You=20
keep insisting that you want us to "put childish things away and=20
truly<BR>embrace Satya, the Truth."<BR><BR>You might heed your own words =
and=20
reconsider whether your own interpretation<BR>of "spirit guides" is =
nothing but=20
a "childish" explanation of your own<BR>making.<BR><BR>Art, please look =
at the=20
DETAILS of the testimonies about the Masters instead<BR>of glossing over =
them in=20
your attempt to consign these so-called<BR>"shadowy beings to the =
shadows from=20
which they emerged."<BR><BR>Hopefully other readers of these emails will =
first=20
look at the facts and<BR>pay less attention to pre-conceived theories =
such as=20
your spirit guide<BR>one.<BR><BR>OBTW, Olcott's testimony that you =
related below=20
did not concern<BR>Master KH as you contend. His testimony related =
to=20
Master M. Again<BR>details are important.<BR><BR>Daniel=20
Caldwell<BR><BR></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Art Gregory's original email is =
below:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>From Art Gregory <A=20
href=3D"mailto:lgregory@discover.net";>lgregory@discover.net</A><BR>Subjec=
t: Will=20
the real Mahatma please stand up?<BR><BR>It is not my purpose to attack =
the good=20
work of Col. Olcott. His<BR>contributions have been made and are =
historically=20
verifiable particularly<BR>to the Buddhist community. As a man he had=20
shortcomings as all of us must<BR>and history has already judged his =
efforts as=20
the first President of the<BR>Society. Let his memory remain for the =
positive=20
contributions he made.<BR><BR>As for the psychic episodes reported one =
need but=20
cite the quotation below<BR>in which he wrote of the some twenty times =
the=20
Master KH was seen in the<BR>Astral body. His further remark that he saw =
the=20
Master KH more than three<BR>or four times "but not under circumstances =
where it=20
would be evidence for<BR>others," is telling enough for me. Recall that =
both=20
Olcott and Madame<BR>Blavatsky were avid Spiritualists and very familiar =
with=20
seances and such<BR>phenomena as "spiritual guides." Such guides are =
commonplace=20
in<BR>spiritualist literature and not that unusual.<BR><BR><BR>>MR. =
MYERS:=20
Have you seen him three or four times in the flesh?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>>COLONEL OLCOTT: Yes, more than =
that, but=20
not under circumstances where it<BR>>would be evidence for=20
others.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>>MR. MYERS: And about how many =
times [have=20
you seen him] in the astral body?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>>COLONEL OLCOTT: Oh, at least 15 =
or 20=20
times.<BR><BR><BR> The mistake here is to confuse the "spirit =
guides"=20
common in Spiritualism<BR>with true in the flesh masters and to give the =
"spirit=20
guides" a greater<BR>place than the verifiable, historical Masters, thus =
devaluating the very<BR>legitimate contributions of historical real =
Masters. As=20
an example I will<BR>cite the practise of the daily life of the Ashram =
of=20
Mahatma Gandhi:<BR><BR><BR>>Many highly educated persons joined his =
ashram to=20
learn yoga under him. They<BR>>thought that Gandhiji would teach them =
yoga in=20
some mysterious manner, in a<BR>>private room. They thought that he =
would=20
teach them pranayama, meditation,<BR>>awakening of the kundalini, =
etc. They=20
were asked to clean the latrines<BR>>first.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>>Gandhiji used to mend his own =
shoes. He=20
himself used to grind the flour. He<BR>>would take upon himself the =
work of=20
others when they were unable to do their<BR>>allotted portion of =
work. When=20
an educated person, a new ashramite, felt shy<BR>>to do grinding =
work,=20
Gandhiji himself would do the work in front of him. And<BR>>then the =
man=20
would willingly do the work the next day.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>>Try to do daily as many =
virtuous actions as=20
possible. When you go to sleep<BR>>have a review of your day's =
actions. Mark=20
them in your spiritual diary.<BR>>Performance of virtuous actions is =
the=20
beginning of spiritual life.<BR><BR>I can cite numerous examples of =
historically=20
verifiable instances of<BR>Masters in the flesh educating humanity and =
teaching=20
the soul that makes<BR>the interaction of KH and Col. Olcott cited by =
others as=20
mere romantic<BR>fantasies compared to true life episodes of instruction =
and=20
learning.<BR>Examples of this can be found in the late life of Leo =
Tolstoy=20
wherein he<BR>adopted the style of life of the serfs and personally =
educated=20
them to read<BR>and write; The example of Vinobe Bhave who single =
handedly built=20
a movement<BR>intyhe 1950's of the greatest voluntary contribution of =
land to=20
the<BR>poorest, landless people of India; The above example and the =
principles=20
of<BR>Mahatma Gandhi in his Satya Agraha movement; The countles and =
little=20
known<BR>Jaina saints who have lived lives dedicated to total Ahimsa; =
there are=20
of<BR>course many others.<BR><BR>The deeper question to me is as =
follows: How=20
much longer will theosophists<BR>cling to the phantoms of the distant =
past on=20
entering the new millenium?<BR>Isn't it time to put childish things away =
and=20
truly embrace Satya, the<BR>Truth, that the theosophical movement may =
once again=20
assume some beacon of<BR>leadership light in the next century?<BR><BR>Or =
will we=20
continue to tell tired old tales to each other, waisting<BR>valuable =
energy and=20
time. I'm for the option of consigning these spectral<BR>missives and =
shadowy=20
beings to the shadows from which they emerged. Let<BR>these past shadowy =
beings=20
be an interesting historical note in the<BR>development of a world =
movement for=20
truth and let us forge ahead daring to<BR>experiment and daring to =
question=20
being in the forefront of a new=20
world<BR>brotherhood.<BR>----------------------------------<BR><BR><BR><B=
R><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR=
></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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