RE: Theos-World Why the TSs are Falling Apart
Mar 13, 1999 04:26 PM
by W. Dallas TenBroeck
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Mar 12th
Dear Jerry and Frank:
I have been reading your postings, and somehow Jerry, I did not get that out
of Frank's posting.
Agreed that the T S is a free forum and has no dogmas. Therefore anyone's
ideas or questions can be asked. But: Why should anyone then call another
to question for those? They are either answered or not.
I could observe that we all have strong opinions. If we are going to try to
learn from each other then we ought to ask such questions as "draws the
other fellow out, so that the real meaning is made clear." We would not be
involved in Theosophy if we did not have great independence.
We also have the ability to think and seek to understand each other.
As to one thing that is quite clear to me: THEOSOPHY is quite different
from the work and organization of any T S.
The various "theosophical bodies" only exist for the convenience of those
who are seeking to find more of the truths and facts of our World and
Universe. They are not sectarian, nor can they exercise any persuasive
force on their members. If their by-laws seem to say this, then the members
still do as they please and to please their own conscience first of all.
There can be no compulsion in a philosophical system that posits the
independence and freedom of Mind in every Human. And then logically
demonstrates that this has to be so.
It is also quite true that we have various ways of asking or doing this.
But the questions ought to be considered. If there are obviously several
ways to go, then, does it not help to show the probable results of adopting
one or another, or all ? I think that is helpful, and also would be
"theosophical." No one ought to "demand" anything. Asking is quite
different from attributing motives to another, and leaves the respondent
free to answer or remain quiet for whatever reason.
How can any one of us presume to interpret the "policy" of either the Adepts
or of HPB ?
We can study their recorded writings (avoiding the commentaries and
qualifications of interpreters) so that we can make up our own minds. And I
think that is self-growth.
I find many instances in HPB's articles and her writings and those of the
Adepts which are available for us to read, that their policies are clear,
and they welcome any sincere and honest approach or question. In a way we
can say that all of us, whatever we may think or are, are their pupils at
some level or another of progress. And the level of that "progress" is
always self-determined, each by and for themselves.
So let us leave the way open to the Adepts to do what they do best -- a
quiet and strong influence that pervades all sincere students and inquirers
wherever they may be. I would not presume to tell another how to think or
act, nor would I give an exclusive opinion. HPB time and again, offers
principles and recommends that we investigate them and adopt them if they
suit us.
Any conclusion we may arrive at depends on the history and nature of the
inquiry and the enquirer.
I would hold that to be important for all of us.
If the TSs "fall apart" it is due to the waywardness of the "members," not
to the PHILOSOPHY which remains undisturbed. But, by impairing the work of
other "members" may we not be transferring our attention from the ACTUAL
STUDY OF THE PHILOSOPHY to side-issues of personalities and an attempt to
assign to them motives and purposes which we are not directly concerned
with.
How does any body of students work? Are there not always the "few
enthusiasts" who shoulder much of the organizational work -- which others
are glad to be relieved of ? In so doing, do not the members (who do little
or nothing) either accept the limits or the broad frontiers of the mental
capacity of those "doers." If the "do-nothings" launch protests one might
legitimately ask why have they waited so long to pay strict attention to the
business of being a member? I say this not to daunt any such inquiry, but
rather to observe that: "The price of Freedom, is Eternal Vigilance."
If one looks around at the course of various "religions" (the
'joiner-together' groups-- as "re-ligiere" in Latin means to "bind" or "tie
together") as the years roll by, one can see this unfolding as the
do-nothings are usually made the eventual victims of the personal schemes of
the "doers." Occasionally a rebellion starts, around some valiant figure
who demands that the ancient and universal principles of truth and equity be
freely applied. Jesus, who came to "minister to the lost sheep of the tribe
of Israel" was one such. Paul then took those treasured ethical injunctions
and showed how even the Gentiles could apply and use them. Later it took
Bishops such as Eusebius, and Tertullian to make the free churches into a
dogmatic group and of the freedom to think into the rigidity of a credo -- a
faith, the transgression of which brought torture, repression, compulsion,
coercion an death.
What is past is past. We cannot undo that. If documents exist, then their
reading gives an inkling of the decision that a person has reached. It says
little about the debates that may have preceded that. What subsequent
actions may have been taken are the responsibility of the recipient of such
decisions, and so on and on.
In my opinion the T Ses do themselves no good in focusing on pleasing
personalities. If you are able to compare the contents of the early
magazines like LUCIFER, THEOSOPHIST, PATH for the period between 1879 and
1895 -- compare those writings with the quality of current contributions to
the currently published magazines such as the THEOSOPHIST, Adyar; QUEST,
Wheaton; CANADIAN THEOSOPHIST, Toronto; ENGLISH THEOSOPHIST, London;
INDIAN THEOSOPHIST, Benares; NEW ZEALAND THEOSOPHIST, New Zealand;
AUSTRALIAN THEOSOPHIST, Australia; THEOSOPHY magazine, Los Angeles; FOHAT,
Edmonton; THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT monthly, Bombay; the HIGH-COUNTRY
THEOSOPHIST, Boulder; PRTOGONUS, THEOSOPHY WORLD, Los Angeles, SUNRISE,
Pasadena, DE THEOSOOF, The Hague; LA THEOSOPHIE, Paris, etc., -- the
comparison is interesting and each shows where the present focus is and
where the current general interest of students and members lies.
Add to this set of comparisons the quality and nature of the INTERNET
postings in which many practice their editorship by sending observations,
questions, criticism and answers -- which all can see, almost daily, at
"theos-talk;" Theos-World, theos-l; blavatsky.net SD Study Group, etc. --
the comparisons are very interesting to study.
It is also clear that everyone is quite free to join/not join,
contribute/remain silent, question/answer, criticize, encourage, and,
sometimes protest.
In any case we all are living and growing together and the eventual minor
discordance smoothed out and we all profit.
I am venting some of my own views and really have no one in particular in
mind. I did think, Jerry, that you were a little too strong in
characterizing Frank. But I am also sticking my "oar" into your waters and
perhaps I should now "shut up."
Best wishes,
Dallas
Dallas TenBroeck
dalval@nwc,net
-----Original Message-----
> From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com
> [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Schueler
> Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 4:57 AM
> To: Theos World
> Subject: Theos-World Why the TSs are Falling Apart
>>No, I am in the contrary of the opinion that it is not only the right, but
it is the duty for every true Theosophist, for every student of the pukka
Theosophy of which HPB was the direct agent, to speak out - the more when
there are sideways and traps or even lies which are smuggled into the
Theosophical Movement to destroy the work of HPB and her teachers. No one is
free of the risk to get criticized, if it seems he/she is wrong doing, no
matter if he/she is alive or dead, except he/she is claims to be an
incarnated god beyond any criticism. >>
Frank, your rationale here is exactly why the TS are fragmented
today, and will probably die out in the future. While you certainly
have the right to think this way, it is completely against the
turn-the-other-cheek policy of real Adepts and of what HPB herself
tried to inspire in her followers. You are, like so many others,
projecting your own narrow sense of truth and "lies" onto others.
Ah well...
Jerry S.
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<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Mar=20
12th</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Dear=20
Jerry and Frank:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>I have=20
been reading your postings, and </FONT></SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>somehow Jerry, I=20
did not get that out of Frank's posting.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Agreed=20
that the T S is a free forum and has no dogmas. Therefore anyone's =
ideas=20
or questions can be asked. But: </FONT></SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Why should anyone=20
then call another to question for those? They are either answered =
or=20
not.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>I could=20
observe that we all have strong opinions. If we are going to try =
to learn=20
from each other then we ought to ask such questions as "draws the =
other=20
fellow out, so that the real meaning is made clear." We would =
not be=20
involved in Theosophy if we did not have great =
independence.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT =
color=3D#000080=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>We also have the ability to think and seek to =
understand each=20
other.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>As to=20
one thing that is quite clear to me: </FONT></SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>THEOSOPHY is quite=20
different from the work and organization of any T S.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>The=20
various "theosophical bodies" only exist for the convenience =
of those=20
who are seeking to find more of the truths and facts of our World and=20
Universe. They are not sectarian, nor can they exercise any =
persuasive=20
force on their members. If their by-laws seem to say this, then =
the=20
members still do as they please and to please their own conscience first =
of all.=20
There can be no compulsion in a philosophical system that posits the=20
independence and freedom of Mind in every Human. And then =
logically=20
demonstrates that this has to be so.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>It is=20
also quite true that we have various ways of asking or doing this. =
But the=20
questions ought to be considered. If there are obviously several =
ways to=20
go, then, does it not help to show the probable results of adopting one =
or=20
another, or all ? I think that is helpful, and also would be=20
"theosophical." No one ought to "demand"=20
anything. Asking is quite different from attributing motives to =
another,=20
and leaves the respondent free to answer or remain quiet for whatever=20
reason.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>How can=20
any one of us presume to interpret the "policy" of either the =
Adepts=20
or of HPB ?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>We can=20
study their recorded writings (avoiding the commentaries and =
qualifications of=20
interpreters) so that we can make up our own minds. And I think =
that is=20
self-growth.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>I find=20
many instances in HPB's articles and her writings and those of the =
Adepts which=20
are available for us to read, that their policies are clear, and they =
welcome=20
any sincere and honest approach or question. In a way we can say =
that all=20
of us, whatever we may think or are, are their pupils at some level or =
another=20
of progress. And the level of that "progress" is always=20
self-determined, each by and for themselves.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 size=3D2>So let us leave the way open to the =
A<SPAN=20
class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>d</FONT></SPAN>epts to do what they do best -- a quiet and =
strong=20
influence that pervades all sincere students and inquirers<SPAN=20
class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial size=3D2> =
wherever they may=20
be</FONT></SPAN>. I would not presume to tell anothe<SPAN=20
class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>r</FONT></SPAN>=20
how to think or act<SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>,</FONT></SPAN> nor would I give an exclusive opinion.<SPAN=20
class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2> HPB time=20
and again, offers principles and recommends that we investigate them and =
adopt=20
them if they suit us.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 size=3D2>Any conclusion we may arrive at =
depends on the=20
history and nature of the inquiry and the enqui<SPAN=20
class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>r</FONT></SPAN>er.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 size=3D2>I would hold that to be important =
for all of=20
us.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 size=3D2>If the TSs "fall apart" it =
is due to=20
the waywardness of the "members," not to the PHILOSOPHY which =
remains=20
undisturbed. But, by impairing the work of other =
"members" may=20
we not be transferring our attention from the <SPAN=20
class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>A</FONT></SPAN>CTUAL STUDY OF THE PHILOSOPHY to side-issues of=20
personalities and an attempt to assign to them motives and purposes =
which we are=20
not directly concerned with. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>How=20
does any body of students work? Are there not always the "few =
enthusiasts" who shoulder much of the organizational work -- which =
others=20
are glad to be relieved of ? In so doing, do not the members (who =
do=20
little or nothing) either accept the limits or the broad frontiers of =
the mental=20
capacity of those "doers." If the =
"do-nothings" launch=20
protests one might legitimately ask why have they waited so long to pay =
strict=20
attention to the business of being a member? I say this not to =
daunt any=20
such inquiry, but rather to observe that: "The price of =
Freedom, is=20
Eternal Vigilance." </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>If one=20
looks around at the course of various "religions" (the=20
'joiner-together' groups-- as "re-ligiere" in Latin means to=20
"bind" or "tie together") as the years roll by, one =
can see=20
this unfolding as the do-nothings are usually made the eventual victims =
of the=20
personal schemes of the "doers." Occasionally a =
rebellion=20
starts, around some valiant figure who demands that the ancient and =
universal=20
principles of truth and equity be freely applied. Jesus, who came =
to=20
"minister to the lost sheep of the tribe of Israel" was one=20
such. Paul then took those treasured ethical injunctions and =
showed how=20
even the Gentiles could apply and use them. Later it took Bishops such =
as=20
Eusebius, and Tertullian to make the free churches into a dogmatic group =
and of=20
the freedom to think into the rigidity of a credo -- a faith, the =
transgression=20
of which brought torture, repression, compulsion, coercion an=20
death.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 size=3D2>What is past is past. We =
cannot undo=20
that. If documents exist, then their reading gives an inkling of =
the=20
decision that a person has reached. It says little about the =
debates that=20
may have preceded that<SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT =
color=3D#000080=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>. What subsequent actions may have been =
taken are the=20
responsibility of the recipient of such decisions, and so on and=20
on.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT=20
color=3D#000080 face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>In my=20
opinion the T Ses do themselves no good in focusing on pleasing=20
personalities. If you are able to compare the contents of the =
early=20
magazines like LUCIFER, THEOSOPHIST, PATH for the period between 1879 =
and 1895=20
-- compare those writings with the quality of current contributions to =
the=20
currently published magazines such as the THEOSOPHIST, Adyar; =
QUEST,=20
Wheaton; CANADIAN THEOSOPHIST, Toronto; ENGLISH THEOSOPHIST, =
London;=20
INDIAN THEOSOPHIST, Benares; </FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT=20
color=3D#000080 face=3DArial size=3D2>NEW ZEALAND THEOSOPHIST, New =
Zealand; =20
AUSTRALIAN THEOSOPHIST, Australia; THEOSOPHY magazine, Los =
Angeles; =20
FOHAT, Edmonton; THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT monthly, Bombay; the =
HIGH-COUNTRY=20
THEOSOPHIST, Boulder; PRTOGONUS, THEOSOPHY WORLD, Los=20
Angeles, SUNRISE, Pasadena, DE THEOSOOF, The Hague; LA =
THEOSOPHIE,=20
Paris, etc., -- the comparison is interesting and each shows where the =
present=20
focus is and where the current general interest of students and members=20
lies. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Add to=20
this set of comparisons the quality and nature of the INTERNET postings =
in which=20
many practice their editorship by sending observations, questions, =
criticism and=20
answers -- which all can see, almost daily, at =
"theos-talk;" =20
Theos-World, theos-l; blavatsky.net SD Study Group, etc. -- the=20
comparisons are very interesting to study. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>It is=20
also clear that everyone is quite free to join/not join, =
contribute/remain=20
silent, question/answer, criticize, encourage, and, sometimes=20
protest.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>In any=20
case we all are living and growing together and the eventual minor =
discordance=20
smoothed out and we all profit.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D20251120-12031999><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>I am=20
venting some of my own views and really have no one in particular in =
mind. =20
I did think, Jerry, that you were a little too strong in characterizing=20
Frank. But I am also sticking my "oar" into your waters =
and=20
perhaps I should now "shut up."</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 size=3D2>Best wishes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 size=3D2>Dallas</FONT></DIV><FONT=20
size=3D2> &nbs=
p; =20
Dallas=20
TenBroeck<BR> =
=20
dalval@nwc,net<BR><BR><BR></FONT>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com=20
[mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]<B>On Behalf Of</B> Jerry=20
Schueler<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, March 12, 1999 4:57 AM<BR><B>To:</B> =
Theos=20
World<BR><B>Subject:</B> Theos-World Why the TSs are Falling=20
Apart<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>>>No, I am in the contrary of the opinion that it is not only =
the=20
right, but<BR>it is the duty for every true Theosophist, for every =
student of=20
the pukka<BR>Theosophy of which HPB was the direct agent, to speak out - =
the=20
more when<BR>there are sideways and traps or even lies which are =
smuggled into=20
the<BR>Theosophical Movement to destroy the work of HPB and her =
teachers. No one=20
is<BR>free of the risk to get criticized, if it seems he/she is wrong =
doing,=20
no<BR>matter if he/she is alive or dead, except he/she is claims to be=20
an<BR>incarnated god beyond any criticism. >></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Frank, your rationale here is exactly why the TS are =
fragmented</DIV>
<DIV>today, and will probably die out in the future. While you=20
certainly</DIV>
<DIV>have the right to think this way, it is completely against =
the</DIV>
<DIV>turn-the-other-cheek policy of real Adepts and of what HPB =
herself</DIV>
<DIV>tried to inspire in her followers. You are, like so many =
others,</DIV>
<DIV>projecting your own narrow sense of truth and "lies" onto =
others.=20
</DIV>
<DIV>Ah well...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Jerry S.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE6C98.769297E0--
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