RE: Theos-World Response to Dallas
Nov 24, 1998 01:34 AM
by W. Dallas TenBroeck
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Nov 24th 1998
Dear Jerry:
IMMORTALITY -- of course this cannot be proved objectively, only by thinking
hard about it. It is neither Hindu nor Buddhist.
Theosophy embraces not only these two but also all the rst of the great
world religions and philosophies -- makes them impersonal and shows that
they all originate from one source.
UNCERTAINTY -- UNCERTAINTY I agree that they are a pair. On the other
hand we cannot read our own future, but we seem to muddle through those
daily problems pretty well.
JUDGMENTS -- Those concerning myself are agreeably subjective. But I
would not try to attempt or make the judging of another a practice. The
surface of all living is limited. Only each person knows in his/her
heart-of-heart what their motives are.
THE INNER SELF -- each has to do this for themselves. If we consider
that all Theosphy offers are the propositions we might use if we want to,
and, in addition lends the weight of testimony in regard to their
application then we may find value in theosophy. But we are all free to go
and take up either our own way of thinking or to study and apply any other
system.
The only reason that I read and contribute to these talks is that I have
found something in Theosophy that is useful for me. I share it in the hope
tha others like you will respond and so we will all learn more together. Of
course my interpretation of what HPB says is my own, but I try also to
impesonalize it and universalize it so that it is not too heavily charged
with my opinions.
KARMA -- My view is that every physical action (thought, feeling, etc.)
has its moral (ethical) and everlasting effect. And that these effects
return to those who generate them in time. I would say that by wronging
anyone I would wrong myself as well as the rest of mankind -- in the long
run.
[DALLAS ]
[DALLAS ]
Dallas TenBroeck
dalval@nwc,net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com
[mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Schueler
Sent: Monday, November 23, 1998 6:26 AM
To: Theos World
Subject: Theos-World Response to Dallas
[DALLAS ]
The "personality" to me, includes not only the reasoning faculty, but
also it engages the emotional faculty (desires, passions, wants and needs)
as a separate faculty.
I agree up to a point.
I use HPB's definitions of the 7=fold man, and have tested it and found
it valuable and workable. It also (to me) solves many of the puzzles of
modern psychology.
I would love to hear how you "tested" it. The problem with most
psychology
is not puzzles but simply that, like scientists, they won't acknowledge
what
they can't detect with their physical senses.
If only they (those engaged in psychological science and investigation)
studied and employed it (Theosophical definitions), they would save a lot of
time.
Transpersonal psychology is slowly doing this, thanks mostly to Ken
Wilber.
But the first stumbling block is the matter of individual IMMORALITY.
If that is not grasped. To me it is very logical but I also recognize that
it is not part of the educational or religious instruction here in the West
(as opposed to the East, where in most countries, among the common people,
the concept of Soul-immorality is common).
Here is where you and I part ways. Like Buddhism, I do not believe in
individual
immortality. In fact, Dallas, the idea of personal immortality is
exactly what the
Black Magician tries to accomplish. Even "Individuality" as defined by
HPB is
transcend, changing, and ephemeral. You will find soul-immortality in
Hinduism,
but not in Buddhism.
[DALLAS ]
Excuse me, but it is easy to take that view point, but it is causing a
paradox. In the sense that you the illusion are able to see other
illusions -- and there would be (if true) no certainty of any kind. But
there is one certainty tha you seem to advance -- THERE IS NOTHING BUT
UNCERTAINTY. If there is contrast then the inquirer has to have a basis.
What is your basis ? This is what I somehow do not get at.
You apparently keep misunderstanding me. I never said THERE IS NOTHING
BUT
UNCERTAINTY, nor do I believe such a thing. What I have been saying is
that certainty
and uncertainty are two sides of the same coin and you can't have one
without the other.
>>Improvement and distortion are purely subjective terms.
[DALLAS ]
AGREED, BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE THEM UNUSABLE OR UNREAL, DOES IT ? iN A
WAY EVERYTHING WE PERCEIVE WITH ANY OF OUR SENSES OR THE MIND IS
"subjective." I say this as we take in those various impressions and then
transform them into images, vibrations, etc. which our inner "brain-mind"
makes a "picture" of and then we gain a vision of what is being prsented and
evolve a response.
When you make a statement that something is a distortion you are making
a subjective judgement. I agree that you are free to make such
judgement
calls for yourself, HPB tells us to do this. But she also points out
that it is
wrong to make such judgement calls for others, and that is what you seem
to be doing all the time (Or am I wrong?).
In short, it is ok to think that you yourself are improving, but it is
quite wrong
to think that your neighbor is not.
[DALLAS ]
Not really, as this is recognized by me as a fact, and also I believe I
am right in assuming that something in "me" is aware of the change of scene,
plane, etc... and either acts, or eceives impressions from that event -- and
then those are brought into focus when we "return" to this plane. I would
very much hesitate to advance any experience tha I had as anything but proof
to myself of the events I had experienced.
The above is very unclear. If you are trying to say that inside of us is
a Seer in
the Patanjali sense, then I would agree. However, you really have to
take this
one step farther and do a Rahmana Maharshi exercise (who am I?) on this
Seer to see what it is. So far, I have been unable to define it, and so
I just
call it pure consciousness for lack of anything better.
[DALLAS ]
Then what HPB advances in TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE (PP 66 -
76 IN my edition) appears to contradict this assumption. Also in SD II 167
is an explanation of the situation.
No, it is not HPB but your own interpretation of her that conflicts.
[DALLAS ]
AS I undrsand it, Karma acts everywhere, on all planes and all the time
for all being including you, me and everyone else. To say tha Karma acts
only in future lives. That is mechanistic and not true. If you allow
boiling water to fall on your hand today the effect is immediate.
We are talking in cross-purposes here. I have no problem with karma
being in time
(but synchronicities are acausal and outside of time). I am heartened to
hear that
you dislike mechanistic or deterministic views of the world although
most of your
messages have suggested the opposite to me.
Jerry S.
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<DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Nov=20
24th 1998</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Dear=20
Jerry:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>IMMORTALITY -- of course this cannot be proved objectively, =
only by=20
thinking hard about it. It is neither Hindu nor=20
Buddhist.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Theosophy embraces not only these two but also all the rst of =
the great=20
world religions and philosophies -- makes them impersonal and shows that =
they=20
all originate from one source.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>UNCERTAINTY -- UNCERTAINTY I agree that they are a=20
pair. On the other hand we cannot read our own future, but =
we seem=20
to muddle through those daily problems pretty well.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>JUDGMENTS -- Those concerning myself are =
agreeably=20
subjective. But I would not try to attempt or make the judging of =
another=20
<FONT color=3D#000080>a practice. The surface of all living is=20
limited. Only each person knows in his/her heart-of-heart what =
their=20
motives are.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2><FONT=20
color=3D#000080></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2> THE INNER SELF -- each has to do this =
for=20
themselves. If we consider that all Theosphy offers are the =
propositions=20
we might use if we want to, and, in addition lends the weight of =
testimony in=20
regard to their application then we may find value in theosophy. =
But we=20
are all free to go and take up either our own way of thinking or to =
study and=20
apply any other system. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>The=20
only reason that I read and contribute to these talks is that I have =
found=20
something in Theosophy tha</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT=20
color=3D#000080 face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D970042010-24111998><FONT=20
color=3D#000080 face=3DArial size=3D2>t </FONT></SPAN> is useful =
for me. I=20
share it in the hope tha others like you will respond and so we will all =
learn=20
more together. Of course my interpretation of what HPB says is my =
own, but=20
I try also to impesonalize it and universalize it so that it is not too =
heavily=20
charged with my opinions.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>KARMA -- My view is that every physical action =
(thought,=20
feeling, etc.) has its moral (ethical) and everlasting effect. And that =
these=20
effects return to those who generate them in time. I would say =
that by=20
wronging anyone I would wrong myself as well as the r<SPAN=20
class=3D970042010-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>e</FONT></SPAN>st=20
of mankind -- in the long run.<BR><SPAN class=3D970042010-24111998><FONT =
color=3D#000080 face=3DArial size=3D2>[DALLAS=20
] </FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D970042010-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
size=3D2> </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=3D970042010-24111998><FONT =
color=3D#000080=20
face=3DArial size=3D2> </FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D970042010-24111998><FONT=20
color=3D#000080 face=3DArial size=3D2> </FONT></SPAN><BR><SPAN=20
class=3D970042010-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>[DALLAS=20
] </FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D970042010-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D970042010-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
size=3D2> </FONT></SPAN><BR></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D980025509-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D970042010-24111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial=20
size=3D2> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<P><FONT=20
size=3D2> &nbs=
p; =20
Dallas=20
TenBroeck<BR> =
=20
dalval@nwc,net<BR><BR><BR></FONT></P>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com=20
[mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]<B>On Behalf Of</B> =
Jerry=20
Schueler<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, November 23, 1998 6:26 =
AM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
Theos World<BR><B>Subject:</B> Theos-World Response to=20
Dallas<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D320482219-21111998><FONT =
color=3D#000080=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>[DALLAS ] </FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D320482219-21111998><FONT =
color=3D#000080=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>The "personality" to me, includes =
not only the=20
reasoning faculty, but also it engages the emotional faculty =
(desires,=20
passions, wants and needs) as a separate faculty. =20
</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D320482219-21111998><FONT =
color=3D#000080=20
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>I agree up to a point. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D320482219-21111998><FONT =
color=3D#000080=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>I use HPB's definitions of the 7=3Dfold man, =
and have tested=20
it and found it valuable and workable. It also (to me) solves =
many of=20
the puzzles of modern psychology. </FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D320482219-21111998><FONT =
color=3D#000080=20
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><FONT size=3D3>I would love to =
hear how you=20
"tested" it. The problem with most =
psychology</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><FONT size=3D3></FONT></FONT>is =
not puzzles=20
but simply that, like scientists, they won't acknowledge what</DIV>
<DIV>they can't detect with their physical senses.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D320482219-21111998><FONT =
color=3D#000080=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>If only they (those engaged in psychological =
science and=20
investigation) studied and employed it (Theosophical definitions), =
they=20
would save a lot of time. </FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D320482219-21111998><FONT =
color=3D#000080=20
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D3>Transpersonal psychology =
is slowly=20
doing this, thanks mostly to Ken Wilber.</FONT></FONT><FONT=20
size=3D3></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D320482219-21111998><FONT =
color=3D#000080=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>But the first stumbling block is the matter of =
individual=20
IMMORALITY. If that is not grasped. To me it is very =
logical but=20
I also recognize that it is not part of the educational or religious =
instruction here in the West (as opposed to the East, where in most=20
countries, among the common people, the concept of Soul-immorality =
is=20
common).</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Here is where you and I part ways. Like Buddhism, I do not =
believe in=20
individual</DIV>
<DIV>immortality. In fact, Dallas, the idea of personal immortality =
is=20
exactly what the</DIV>
<DIV>Black Magician tries to accomplish. Even =
"Individuality" as=20
defined by HPB is</DIV>
<DIV>transcend, changing, and ephemeral. You will find =
soul-immortality in=20
Hinduism,</DIV>
<DIV>but not in Buddhism.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D320482219-21111998><FONT =
color=3D#000080=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>[DALLAS ] </FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D320482219-21111998><FONT =
color=3D#000080=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>Excuse me, but it is easy to take that view =
point, but it=20
is causing a paradox. In the sense that you the illusion are =
able to=20
see other illusions -- and there would be (if true) no certainty of =
any=20
kind. But there is one certainty tha you seem to advance -- =
THERE IS=20
NOTHING BUT UNCERTAINTY. If there is contrast then the =
inquirer has to=20
have a basis. What is your basis ? This is what I =
somehow do not=20
get at.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You apparently keep misunderstanding me. I never said THERE IS =
NOTHING=20
BUT </DIV>
<DIV>UNCERTAINTY, nor do I believe such a thing. What I have been =
saying is=20
that certainty </DIV>
<DIV>and uncertainty are two sides of the same coin and you can't =
have one=20
without the other. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>>>I<SPAN class=3D320482219-21111998><FONT=20
color=3D#000080 face=3DArial size=3D2>mp</FONT></SPAN>rovement and =
distortion are=20
purely subjective terms.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> <FONT color=3D#000080 =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D320482219-21111998><FONT color=3D#000080 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>[DALLAS ]=20
</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000080 size=3D2></FONT> <FONT =
size=3D2>AGREED, BUT THAT=20
DOES NOT MAKE THEM UNUSABLE OR UNREAL, DOES IT ? iN A WAY =
EVERYTHING=20
WE PERCEIVE WITH ANY OF OUR SENSES OR THE MIND IS=20
"subjective." I say this as we take in those various =
impressions and then transform them into images, vibrations, etc. =
which our=20
inner "brain-mind" makes a "picture" of and then =
we gain=20
a vision of what is being prsented and evolve a =
response.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000>When you make a statement that something =
is a=20
distortion you are making</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT>a subjective judgement. I =
agree that=20
you are free to make such judgement</DIV>
<DIV>calls for yourself, HPB tells us to do this. But she also =
points out=20
that it is</DIV>
<DIV>wrong to make such judgement calls for others, and that is what =
you=20
seem</DIV>
<DIV>to be doing all the time (Or am I wrong?).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In short, it is ok to think that you yourself are improving, =
but it is=20
quite wrong</DIV>
<DIV>to think that your neighbor is not.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D320482219-21111998><FONT=20
color=3D#000080 face=3DArial size=3D2>[DALLAS =
] </FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D320482219-21111998><FONT=20
color=3D#000080 face=3DArial size=3D2>Not really, as this is =
recognized by me as a=20
fact, and also I believe I am right in assuming that something in=20
"me" is aware of the change of scene, plane, etc... and =
either=20
acts, or eceives impressions from that event -- and then those are =
brought=20
into focus when we "return" to this plane. I would =
very much=20
hesitate to advance any experience tha I had as anything but proof =
to myself=20
of the events I had experienced.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>The above is very unclear. If you are trying to say that inside =
of us=20
is a Seer in</DIV>
<DIV>the Patanjali sense, then I would agree. However, you really =
have to=20
take this</DIV>
<DIV>one step farther and do a Rahmana Maharshi exercise (who am I?) =
on=20
this</DIV>
<DIV>Seer to see what it is. So far, I have been unable to define =
it, and so=20
I just</DIV>
<DIV>call it pure consciousness for lack of anything better. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D320482219-21111998><FONT =
color=3D#000080=20
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D320482219-21111998><FONT =
color=3D#000080=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>[DALLAS =
] </FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D320482219-21111998><FONT color=3D#000080 =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Then what HPB advances in TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY =
LODGE (PP 66=20
- 76 IN my edition) appears to contradict this assumption. =
Also in SD=20
II 167 is an explanation of the situation.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000>No, it is not HPB but your own =
interpretation of=20
her that conflicts.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D320482219-21111998><FONT =
color=3D#000080=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>[DALLAS ] </FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D320482219-21111998><FONT =
color=3D#000080=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>AS I undrsand it, Karma acts everywhere, on =
all planes and=20
all the time for all being including you, me and everyone =
else. To say=20
tha Karma acts only in future lives. That is mechanistic and =
not=20
true. If you allow boiling water to fall on your hand today =
the effect=20
is immediate. </FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D300522319-20111998><FONT color=3D#000080 =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV>We are talking in cross-purposes here. I have no problem with =
karma=20
being in time</DIV>
<DIV>(but synchronicities are acausal and outside of time). I am =
heartened=20
to hear that</DIV>
<DIV>you dislike mechanistic or deterministic views of the world =
although=20
most of your</DIV>
<DIV>messages have suggested the opposite to me.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D3>Jerry =
S.</FONT></FONT><FONT=20
size=3D3></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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