Theos-Talk Archives (July 1997 Message tl00219)

At 10:16 PM 7/16/97 -0400, Eldon B. Tucker wrote:
>Keith:
>
>>A Master needs slaves.
>
>There is more than one definition of "Master". Besides the one
>that is the owner of slaves, we have someone highly skilled,
>adept at some area of life. And there are some people that are
>highly skilled at spiritual unfoldment, adepts or Masters of 
>life.
>

MKR: I agree with Eldon. The Ones that Theosophy are familiar with, have
*never* wanted any type of slave at any time, from what I have read. I am
not yet spoken to any of Them to find out first hand.

>>An organization needs leaders to lead and followers to follow.
>
>A cult that uses power and mind control wants people to boss
>around. But that is only one kind of organization. Other
>groups exist with altruistic aims, and seek to serve others.
>Not all organizations are malevolent and harmful to the welfare
>of humanity. 
>

MKR: It depends on the organization. Leaders can lead without any
organization. Many examples are there. Of course if a free individual wants
to follow a person or an idealogy, it is his/her choice. If there are blind
followers then I am reminded of the famous dictum -- blind following the
blind and both falling into the ditch!

>>A spiritual leader needs disciples or chelas or he is casting 
>>pearls in the wind, to mix a metaphor.
>
>Perhaps a fake one does, someone on an ego trip and lacking
>in genuine spirituality. A real guru is like a great artist,
>producing wonderful creations in the world, unconcerned with
>the size of admiring audience that is attracted for the show.
>

MKR:   A real spiritual leader needs no disciples or chelas. It is the
ordinary mortal individual who goes begging to be considered as a disciple
or a chela, and even then there is no certainty that the request will be
acceeded to.

>>So what is the problem. The problem is in the psychology of 
>>the REBEL, the Promethean, the luciferian who will bring 
>>light to men at the expense of his own life and eternal 
>>well-being as an eternal P RAISER.
>
>We do have to take responsibility for our own progress, and
>not depend on others to do it for us. That sometimes means
>waking up to our surrounding circumstances and making 
>changes. We may quit groups and discover that some of our
>friends are really a destructive influence on us -- and 
>walk away to new friends and activities.
>

MKR: There is no problem as I see it. When a person starts to become an
independent thinker and deals with the problems with an open mind and keep
perception, he becomes a very creative problem solver and the creativity
shows itself as unpredictable, because the independent thinker
himself/herself does not know in advance how a problem will be resolved. You
are correct that such individuals are also likely to be selfsacrificing for
the good of his fellow men and women and creatures.

>This does not mean that a guru is not important. But it's
>up to us to judge when we need to seek out expert training
>and when we need to walk alone on the path.
>

MKR: I do not know if we can judge for ourselves when we need a guru -- a
type of spiritual consultant, I suppose.

>>I would say that 90 per cent if not all theosophists share 
>>the rebel psychology in that we would all follow our family 
>>religions if we just wanted to learn a tradition, a practice 
>>and not cause changes, distress, revolution to some extent.
>
>We're all questioning what we're taught by society, and no
>longer accept the status quo. Often our spiritual awakening
>goes hand-in-hand with personal problems or external conflict,
>as life is adjusting itself about us and we're in a state
>of progressive turbulence.
>

MKR: You are right. We can be in the world but not of the world.

>>The problem is that TSA and other organizations are largely 
>>conservative ossified, if not petrified, although they do 
>>a lot of good work in archiving and transmitting the work 
>>so far accomplished.
>
>The main function that they've concentrated on was in an
>educational aspect, of preserving the basic philosophy and
>making it available to future generations. But we can only
>go so far in reading the books before we want something
>more, and the theosophical groups are lacking in that 
>respect. They aren't Lessor Mysteries, with a lineage of
>gurus waiting to be our spiritual trainers. We have to look
>elsewhere or to ourselves for the next step.
>

MKR: Agreed. The organizations have a purely mechanical function to perform.
Even HPB had clearly stated that TS was not meant to be a school of
occultism to  train occultists. Some may be under the wrong impression that
this is so and even be looking forward to be recruited to join the future
6th RR community that is predicted and feel good about it. After all such
self-improvement is just another selfish activity.

>>But I asked this before, do the Masters want spiritual 
>>brown nosers?  Do they want their astral asses kissed?
>
>Not from what they've written. They want self-initiative,
>people willing to be independent centers of light in an
>otherwise dark world. It would seem silly to them, I
>think, were people to put their pictures on alters, place
>flowers before the pictures, and pray to them. On the other
>hand, there are many who would speak for the Masters that
>use that claim to attract a large following and perhaps
>fatten their wallets at the same time.
>

MKR: Agreed. They mean business in every sense of the word. They have a very
difficult job to do and can use any help to help our fellow humans. Results
are what counts not how we feel personally about Them. This is what has been
stated in ML to APS. If some gullible person wants to follow someone who
claims to have some special connection with Them, then it is their business.
Let us grow up and act like grown up people and be self reliant and self
directed.

>>Or do they admire the rebellious spirit, because they once, 
>>if not eternally share it, despite allegiance to THE HIERARCHY
>>and ULTIMATE UNITIVE TRUTH?
>
>I'd expect that they'd admire the willingness to think through
>and decide things on one's own. This manifests as a rebellious
>spirit when it is right to rebel; it manifests an faithful,
>to-the-death devotion when that is right. The important thing
>here is knowing which is right, in a particular place in life,
>and doing it.
>
>You're basically making a good point about the importance of
>us becoming independent thinkers, learning to live our lives
>with greater intelligence and higher standards that the world
>about us requires. But the urge to rebel must be balanced 
>with the urge to establish harmony and unity. The two are
>both needed in living life skillfully. Objecting to and
>escaping the negative is only have of the process.
>
>-- Eldon
>

MKR:  Glad that we are discussing some very important and serious issues.

And we can discuss without the nagging thought about moderating -- editing,
deleting *garbage* etc. etc. and protecting privacy!!!!! Any one wants my
phone numbers, e-mail and street address???  Send a $100 donation to TS
Lodge San Antonio(c/o MKR) -- it is 501(c)(3) tax deductible and also sure
to generate a lot of good Karma to the donor -- I am also sure that Karmic
accounting department is very meticulous and never makes any mistakes!!!

........MKRamadoss