Theos-Talk Archives (September 1996 Message tl00245)

Hi Jerry,
discussing about Talmud, Toldoth and gospels, and historicity of Jesus
you said:

>What date do you assign to the Talmud?  When the collection of this
>material was compiled into a single work?  If this is your
>argument, then we would have to say that the Biblical tradition
>did not begin until the publication of the first complete Bible
>(I believe that was done around 1380). Evidence suggests that
>the New Testament scriptures were compiled in the first and second
>centuries.  I think we agree on this.

Ok let`s <collect together the New Testament stories, the Talmud
stories, and whatever other contemporary evidence is extant>. Why did
you conclude that NT were compile in the first and second centuries?
Surely because many christian fathers of this ancient time make references
to such material. For instance: Some christians references about Jesus lived
under Pilate`s time

Ignatius (40-107) bishop of Antioch and Apostolic father
THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE MAGNESIANS CHAP. XI
THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE TRALLIANS CHAP. IX
THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE SMYRAEANS CHAP. I

Justin (165)
JUSTIN MARTYR THE FIRST APOLOGY OF JUSTIN CHAP. XIIL,CHAP. XL,CHAP. XLVI,CHAP. LXI
THE SECOND APOLOGY OF JUSTIN FOR THE CHRISTIANS ADDRESSED TO THE ROMAN SENATE
CHAP. XXX,CHAP. LXXVI,CHAP. LXXXV,CHAP. CII,CHAP. CIII

Irenaeus (170)
IRENAEUS AGAINST HERESIES BOOK I CHAP. VII,CHAP. XXV,CHAP. XXVII
IRENAEUS AGAINST HERESIES BOOK II CHAP. XXXII
IRENAEUS AGAINST HERESIES BOOK III CHAP. IV

Clement of Alexandria (150-215) christian theologian and writer
FRAGMENTS OF CLEMENS ALEXANDRINUS.FROM THE BOOKS OF THE HYPOTYPOSES EUSEBIUS: BOOK VII.
I Tim. vi. 13. "Who witnessed before Pontius Pilate." For He testified by what he did that He was Christ the Son of God.

Tertulian (160-230) carthaginian theologian
TERTULIAN APOLOGY CHAP. XXI.CHAP. XXI.
THE PRESCRIPTION AGAINST HERETICS.CHAP. XXV.--

Origen (185-254) alexandrian writer and theologian
ORIGEN AGAINST CELSUS.BOOK I.PREFACE.

Let`s take an clear analysys, without prejudices. Who did mention the
Jesus, as given by Talmud or Toldoth? Something like this <as stated in
Talmud (or Toldoth) Jesus lived...>. There no clear evidence about it.
This is a strong evidence that these passagges are later insertions.
Even HPB recognices (book III, chapter III, footnote) that Toldoth was
mentioned for the first time by Martin at century XIII! because this
text was maintained in secrecy by jews. So historically there are
difficulties to say that the Jesus of Talmud or Toldoth were written
BEFORE gospels.

Abrantes