Theos-Talk Archives (September 1996 Message tl00210)

Discussind about Talmud, Toldoth and gospels, and the historicity of
Jesus, Jerry wrote:

>"What is the most ancient text"?  According to the first century
>Rabbis of the Talmud, the story of the first century B.C.E. Jesus
>was taken from Temple records that were lost when the Romans
>destroyed the second temple in 70 C.E....The original reason for
>writing the Talmud was to preserve as many of these old records
>as possible in order to continue the very culture that the Romans
>tried to destroy.  Therefore the Jesus story was not included in
>the Talmud as some kind of revenge against Christians (who at
>that time were hardly distinguishable from themselves), but only
>to preserve the family records.  Two Talmuds were written.  One
>by the Jews who remained near Jerusalem, and the other was
>compiled by the Jews who fled to Babylonia.  The same story was
>preserved in both versions, but Christian pressure forced its
>removal from the Jerusalem version.  If the Jewish claim that the
>early Talmud was taken from actual records at the Temple is true,
>then the story of the 100 B.C.E. Jesus must be the oldest story.

Enc. Britanica <Macropaedia>, <Judaism>, p406,407 writes:
Ezra the scribe who, according to the Book of Ezra reestablished and
reformed the jewish religion in the 5th century BCE, began the <search
in the law...to teach in Israel sattutes and ordinances>. His work was
continued by soferim (scribes), who preserved, taught and interpreted the
Bible. They linked the oral tradition to scripture, transmitting it as a
running commentary of the Bible. For almost 300 years they applied the Torah
to changing circumstances, making it a living law. They also introduced
numerous laws that were designated <words of soferim> by Talmudic sources.
By the end of this period, rabbinic judaism - the religious system
constructed y th scribes and rabbis - was strong enough to withstand
pressure from withou and mature enough to permit internal diversity of
opinion. At the beggining of 2nd century BCE, a judicial body headed by the
zugot - pairs of scholars - assumed Halakhic authority. There were five
pairs in all, beteween 150 and 30 BCE. the first of the zugot also introduced
the mishnaic style of transmiting the oral tradition.

Hillel and Shammai, the last of Zugot, ushered in the period of tannaim -
teachers of the Mishna - at the end of the first century BCE. This era
distinguished by a continuous attempt to consolidate the fragmentary midrashic
and mishnaic material, culminated in the compilation of the Mishna at the
beggining of the 3rd century CE. The work was carried out in the academies of
Hillel and Shammai and in others founded later. Most scholars believe that
Halakhic collections existed prior to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE.
By the beggining of the 2nd century there were many such collections.
Tradition has it that Rabbi Akiba organized much of this material into
separate collections of Midrash, Mishna and Haggada and introduced the formal
divisions in tannaitic literature. His students and others scholars organized
new compilations that were studied in th different academies.

The expounders of the Mishna were the amoraim (interpreter) and the two
Talmuds - the palestinian (or Jerusalem) and the babylonian - consist of
their explanations, discussions and decisions. Both take the form of a
running commentary on the Mishna. the foundations of the these monumental
works were begun by three disciples of Judah ha-Nasi: Johanan bar Nappaha,
Rav (Abba Arika) and Samuel bar Abba.

The portion of the Palestinian Talmud dealing with three Bavot (gates)-
the first three tractates of the fourth order of the Mishna - was compiled
in caesarea in the middle of the 4th century. The remainder was completed
in Tiberias some 50 years later.

The babylonian Talmud was compiled up to 6th century. The statement in the
tractate Bava metzia that <Rabina an Rav Ashi were the end of instruction>
is most often understood as referring to the final redactions od the Talmud.
Since at least two generations of scholars following Rav Ashi (died 427) are
mentioned in Talmud, most scholars suggest that Rabina refers to Rabina bar
Huna (died 499) and that readction was a slow process lasting about 75 years
to the end of 5th century.

<end of text>

Conclusion both Talmuds were written after the redaction of gospels, even
though some material come possibly comes from 1 BC as you suggests. But
this is only a possibility, that difficult can be confirmed....

Abrantes