Theos-Talk Archives (August 1996 Message tl00153)

We can summarize the question until now, so that others people
can participate also: HPB wrote that historical Jesus lived 1 B.C, so one
century before that Church states. She refers to a ancient text Sepher Toldoth
that was cited for the first time only in century XIII. I my last reference
I cited Marcion, that recognices Luke`s gospel, and so also believe that
the reference cited in Toldoth (if he knowed about it...) was wrong.

Jerry Ekins contested:
>I have already shown the flaws in your above argument: Marcion,
>according to HPB did not recognize the Gospel of Luke, and
>considers the accusations of Tertullian and Epiphanius against
>Marcion to be false.

In BOOK III, chapter IV, first pages HPB wrote: [Finally, we can add that
the modern biblical critical, that unfortunatelly become active and serious
only at the endings of last century, already admits that the ONLY GOSPEL THAT
MARCION WAS ACQUAINTED WITH - THE GOSPEL OF LUKE - is more superior and
reliable than the today synoptics. We read at Supernatural Religion, the
following phrase, that will startle christians: we indebts so, to Marcion even
the correct version of prayer Our Father].

Probably Supernatural Religion is referring to Lc11:2, more correct than
Mt6:9 (I dont agree with this point, but I prefer to discuss this point
latter...). So the author of Supernatural religion ALSO believe that
Marcion recogniced Gospel of Luke, and so believe that Jesus live under
Pilate, and so rejects the argument that Jesus lived one century before...
Remember that HPB at book III, chapter III (start 116, end 145) page 143
says that Marcion refused ALL gospels, what shows a clear contradiction...

I also cited the opinion of Dr Lardner, that also believe that Marcion
accepted only gospel of Luke. It would be interesting to know what others
cited by Blavastski think, such as King (The gnostics and their remains),
and those cited by Cassels in Supernatural religion, such as Bunsen,
Tischendorf, Westcott, Credner and Schleiermacher. Adolf von Harnack also
discussed the ideas of Marcion, and so influenced the liberal protestant
doctrine (Harnack, <Marcion:das Evangelium von fremden Gott, Leipzig, 1921>
and Blackmann, Edwin Cyril <Marcion and his influence, London 1948).

You contested the correctness of Tertulian (V Books against Marcion) the
carthaginian theologian (160-230) and Epiphanius (Adv. Haeresis) Bishop of
Cyprus (357-403). Gibbon Vol I,721 wrote: [in the time of Epiphanius the
marcionites were very numerous in Italy, Syria, Egypt, Arabia and Persia]
So, it is very improbable that there is a misconception here. Tertulian and
Epiphanius spends many chapters to explain verse by verse the differences
between the Marcion`edition of gospel of Luke. If all these chapters are
based in a misconception, why did nobody contest it ?

I already cited a passage from Eusebius at Ecclesiastic History BOOK V,
CHAP VIII, that reproduces another passage from Iraenaeus. There is also
an anti-marcionite prologue to the gospel of Luke, that dates 180 and
was written at church of Rome where we can find: <Luke is man from Antioch,
Syria, a physician for profession. He was disciple of the apostles, and
later de accompanied Paul until his martyrdom. Having neither wife nor child,
he served the Lord without distraction> Enc. Brittanica Vol 7,p555 <Luke>
So Luke is a Paul`s disciple. Observe that Luke comes from Syria, where
HPB refers to "Syrian heresies" where the "Original Christianity is to be
found..."(137). Surely Luke is an ortodox, so he doen`t express the
"Syrian heresies".

Finally I would like to cited Iraenaeus that lived under 180, another
ancient reference about Marcion:

http://ccel.wheaton.edu/fathers file ECF01.TXT
IRENAEUS,IRENAEUS AGAINST HERESIES,BOOK I
CHAP. XXVII.
Marcion of Pontus...he mutilates the Gospel which is according to Luke,
removing all that is written respecting the generation of the Lord, and
setting aside a great deal of the teaching of the Lord, in which the Lord is
recorded as most dearly confessing that the Maker of this universe is His
Father. He likewise persuaded his disciples that he himself was more worthy
of credit than are those apostles who have handed down the Gospel to us,
furnishing them not with the Gospel, but merely a fragment of it. In like
manner, too, he dismembered the Epistles of Paul, removing all that is said
by the apostle respecting that God who made the world, to the effect that He
is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and also those passages from the
prophetical writings which the apostle quotes, in order to teach us that
they announced beforehand the coming of the Lord.

Abrantes