Theos-Talk Archives (August 1996 Message tl00094)

JSY>Perhaps I could provide my ideas, and see how well they float:

Euser: >Why cannot the (higher) manas within the auric egg (or field of
>consciousness-matter) send out a ray, form a vehicle, for a new
>manifestation?

JSY>This is precisly what is presented, based on my reading/interpretation.  The
Manas is the Causal [Cause-al] body,


        James, I've looked up the definition of 'causal body' in HPB's glossary.
She says (a.o.)that: 'Buddhi alone could not be called a "Causal Body", but
becomes so in conjunction with Manas, the incarnating Entity or Ego'.
So, both you and Jerry S. are partly right from the point of view in HPB's
terminology (glossary), which is a good place to start with.


JSY>which when manifestation is required
causes a ray [or thread] to be emanated, which CAUSES the formation of:
        1)      Kama-Manas              = Mental Body
        2)      Kama                    = Astral Body
        3)      Linga-Sarina            = Etheric Double
        4)      Shula-Sarina            = Physical Body


        Not to be nitpicking, but it is sarira, not sarina.
I'm a bit uncomfortable with no 1) being designated mental body, although
I've noticed this term before (CWL?, Bailey?).
I prefer to look at kama-manas as operating within a psychic body
or structure. As I'm currently studying other divisions of the human being,
I cannot present a full picture at this time.

JSY>This would point to the fact that the three-fold unit (Atma-Buddhi-Manas) is
where the origin of manifestation occurs, from our point of view ("our"
being the human life wave.)  This, on a higher level, would still present
itself as manas for that given level, this being in total agreement with HPB
when she stated that "Universal Mind ever IS." Therefore, in restatement,
MANAS most certainly DOES reincarnate, however it does have Atma and Buddhi
along with it,

        I agree

in the same way that one has their Heart and Lung along with
them when they decide to have a meal (which is consumed and processed by
other organs in the body, most importantly the Stomach and Liver.)

        A bit of a crude analogy, perhaps.

JSY>Jerry S. States that "Because manas is the human mind, and it is re-born
each time. The causal body, the atma-buddhi, is the Reincarnating Ego which
puts forth a new "ray" or manas at the beginning of each re-incarnation."
The only difference here is that Jerry removes "Manas" from the Causal,
making it Atma-Buddhi.  I disagree with this since every model presented by
every teaching that I've seen has the Noetic (or Mind) giving birth to the
Psychic (or Kamic).

        Yes, Manas has to be included IMO. This is not only HPB's point
of view, (see Glossary and Key to Theosophy) but in line with other teachings
too and  this tri-une atma-buddhi-manas concept appeals to me too for several
reasons.


JSY> Further, Manas is NOT the human mind, but Mind in total.
The human mind is limited by the expression (or vehicle of expression) by
which it is observed (in Kama.)  This makes the human mind "Kama-Manas", not
"Manas."

        I'm afraid I have to disagree here. Manas is the reincarnating principle
in man. In one way you may be right, ie when you use Manas as a synonym of
Mahat,
universal Mind. In Theosophy we usually relate Manas to man as the reincarnating
principle, however, or 'when qualified it is called by Theosophists Buddhi-Manas
or the Spiritual Soul in contradistinction to its human reflection- Kama-Manas'
(quote from HPB's Theosophical glossary).

JSY>This presentation of incarnation appears substancially the same as mine, but
I'd like to see if it does to you as well:

>	Let me phrase this differently. Let us assume the standpoint
>of the human monad. It manifests
  from the Causal Body, or 'Atma-Buddhi-Manas'

        Let's say Buddhi-Manas.



  In this model, the keynote is that the 'Causal Vehicle' can be likened to the
  Kumaras, which are eternal virgins, through which manifestation occurs albeit
  without a direct affect upon them.  Manifestation, or rebirth, of the
monad     occurs through them, but the causal vehicle is not caused
(directly) by the   monad (on this level of manifestation).

        I'm afraid you loose me here.


JSY>  Using "Cosmogenesis" for an example of "As Above, So Below", this appears
to    be, at least on the surface a restatement of "The Ray shoots through
the     Virgin Egg [the Causal Vehicle, or Atma-Buddhi-Manas]; the ray
causes the     eternal egg [the ayn-sof] to thrill, and drop the non-eternal
(periodical [or   reincarnating]) germ [the Monad], which condenses into the
world-egg   [the   quarternary, or the composite, which becomes the Mental,
Astral, and Physical   bodies]

        Your analogy has some merit, I think.

JSY>Using the above, I might present the possiblity that
  a) sub-races within Root-Races    relate to   Personas emitted from Manas
  b) Root Races within rounds       relate to   Manasic vehicles from Monads
  c) Rounds within Globes          compare to   Monads emitted from "Ayn Soph"

        I'm not so sure about that.  There is however a development of
qualities of consciousness (and elements manifested) in the
root-race/rounds/globes
scheme. That seems to be more involved than your correspondence suggests.
IOW, there is far more to the root-race/rounds scheme than is apparent in your
relational scheme. Food for thought.


JSY>Question, do you think that the 'Egoic Lotus' model of Alice Bailey would
coorilate very well to this.  She shows three trinities, each nested within
another, with a round multi-faceted center:
        The center would be            the Manifesting ego (or the Monad)
        The first trinity would be     the Causal Body (Atma-Buddhi-Manas)
        The second trinity would be    the Astral/Mental unit (plus Prana)
        The third trinity would be     The Sarina (Linga/Shula, plus Prana)


        It is long since I read Bailey, but trinities of all sorts seem to be
an important factor in some models I've seen, so the above suits me fine
as far as it goes.

JSY>Max Heindel's coorilating model might be
        Center                          The Virgin Spirits
        First Trinity                   Divine/Life/Human spirit (as a group)
        Second trinity                  Soul (or Psyche from the greek)
        Third Trinity                   Body (et All)


        I've not studied Heindel to a large extent, but it seems more or less
in agreement with the other schemes, allowing for translation of terms and
concepts. You would have to define the terms used more sharply to bring about
a clearer idea of correspondences, however.

JSY>And this would therefore be in substantial agreement with Jerry when he says
"If you look at it as body [sarina], soul [kama-manas], and spirit [causal],
then only the spirit [causal vehicle, or Nous] survives and reincarnates,
forming a new soul [Psyche] and new body each time. [remarks in square
brackets are mine (JSY)]

        Yes, it looks that way.

JSY>Do you think that the preceeding ideas are in substantial agreement with
your studies and/or experience?

        Yes, more or less. I'm currently studying Vitvan who provides similar,
but a bit clearer schemes than the above ones. When I'm back from my holiday
I may present a scheme or two to you. It may be interesting to compare them with
Jerry Schueler's scheme.

Martin