Theos-Talk Archives (May 1996 Message tl00534)

JHE
>>No, I don't need support for the ideal of universal planes nor
>>do I question the philosophical propositions concerning
>>extension. As I explained earlier, I'm just trying to get a
>>feel for how you understand the terms you use.  But for
>>clarity, I will rephrase my question:  If the "universal
>>planes" are "states external to our solar system", then what
>>are they internal to?  e.g.: Our galaxy?;  Our family of
>>galaxies?; the entire universe?

Kim
>It would be useless to guess as to the nature of
>universal consciousness.

JHE
       My question doesn't concern the consciousness aspect, but
the "extension" aspect.

Kim
>> they are the white circle plane in the black field. The 6th is
>>completely unknown. The vedantins place their Parabrahm on the
>>first plane, the seventh being prakritic, the 5th universal
>>mind.

JHE
>Which chart are you using here?

Kim
Beginning of Proem and the Subba Row/Schwarz diagrams

JHE
There are no charts in the Proem, only symbols.  I never heard of
the "Subba Row/Schwarz diagrams."  I didn't even know they met.
But these would probably be outside the parameters of this
discussion anyway, unless they are a commentary on some specific
teaching of HPB or CWL.

JHE
>>>>What do you call the planes for the earth's system of globes?

Kim
>>>4 lower planes of the solar system also called planes of the 4
>>>ethers (AAB). see again CW XII p. 658 for grossest globe
>>>(ours) on 7th or objective plane.

>- an error here. The 4 lower should be called 4th etheric,
>gaseous, liquid and dense.

JHE
Is AAB's definition supposed to be representative of HPB or CWL?
Can you give me an HPB or CWL quote and nomenclature instead?  I
don't find the terms "etheric" "gaseous" "liquid" and "dense"
used anywhere on p. 658.  Can you give me HPB's corresponding
terms from p. 658?
JHE
>>Again thanks for this answer.  But again I was looking for an
>>overall term.

Kim
>This would only confuse the matter as they are also planes of
>the solar system.

JHE
You are saying that the planes for the earth's system of globes
are the same as the planes of the solar system?  Do you have a
name for it?

JHE
>>>>What do you call the planes for the sun's system of globes?

Kim
>>>Our planetary chain ARE one of our sun's systems of globes (at
>>>least affiliated with this solar system)?  Or do you mean the
>>>sacred planets?

JHE
>>No, I don't mean the sacred planets. I was asking for the
>>overall term for the planes of the sun's system of globes, ie
>>the sun's globes A - E.

Kim
>Your question was extremely confusing. You mean by the sun's
>system of globes the visible, physical globes (as I understand
>it). They would generally be globe D of the various chains - all
>on the seventh plane.

JHE
The Sun's system of globes would be seven solar globes, just as
the Earth's system of globes would be terran seven globes.  HPB
normally refers to the globes of any system of globes as globe A,
globe B, globe C, etc.   Now, these seven globes are found on the
four lower planes of a system of seven planes.  What is the
overall name you use for this system of seven planes?

JHE
>>>>What do you call the planes where are to be found the human
>>>>principles?

Kim
>>>On all planes of the solar system and hence the planes of the
>>>planetary chain except the highest. The important principles
>>>are the relation between monad and ego - ending with the
>>>mental plane, the 5th. These constitute the buddhist skandhas
>>>and the correlations of atma, so to speak, in hinduism.  They
>>>are correlation of force or spirit rather than correlation of
>>>elements, elementals. The knowledge of these principles
>>>constitute a whole science for itself.

JHE
We will have plenty of time to get into a description of these
planes.  But at present, I'm simply looking for a noun.  For
instance, if you were to ask me what I call my correspondent who
lives in Denmark, I would answer "Kim Poulsen."   So, in the same
vein, what do you call the plans where are to be found the human
principles?

JHE
>>Then you are saying that the human "astral body" is on the
>>solar "astral plane" and the "mental body" is on the solar
>>mental plane?

Kim
>Generally yes. But a mental body is a very simplified concept
>except if used for the causal body, karana sarira

JHE
Are you saying that the term "mental body" can denote the "causal
body" and/or the "karana sarira"?

JHE
>>Please enumerate for me the terms you use for the seven
>>principles of man.

Kim
>For our purpose the one on p. 607 of CW XII will do, supported
>by the one between  p. 524-5. The 4 eternal principles are here
>atma, buddhi, manas and the auric envelope, together inner man
>or monad-ego relation - and the 3 outer aspects, lower mind,
>astral and physical (prana as the life-force of the etheric
>web). In short 7 principles on 6 planes (2 on the dual mental
>plane). It is the best and most occult enumeration by HPB in my
>opinion.

JHE
You are giving me three here.  Two from vol. 12, and yours
described above, which I tabulated below for comparison.   The
enumerations in volume twelve are fine, and we can go by them.
Later, we will have to add CWL's.   You will be receiving CWL's
diagrams shortly.

Kim                     p. 607                p. 524-25

atma                    atman                 atman
auric envelope          auric envelope
buddhi                  buddhi                buddhi
manas                   manas                 manas
lower mind              lower manas           lower manas
                                              kama-rupa
astral
                        linga sarira          linga sarira
                        prana                 prana
physical

Kim
>To recapitulate if we are to concentrate on HPB - I would like
>to use:

>   For the 7 principles - the diagram on p. 607

JHE
Done.

Kim
>For the universal or macrocosmic planes Figure A of p. 658. The
>names relates only to forces manifesting within the solar system
>and no attempt is made to designate them on their own plane.

JHE
By "universal planes" you mean what HPB calls "macrocosmic
planes"?  OK

Kim
>For the solar physical body or prakritic planes Figure B of p.
>658. These are the planes of the solar system. On the 4 lower we
>have the 7 globes of a chain.

JHE
Then for the planes of the solar system, you call them "the solar
physical body"?  By "7 globes of a chain" you mean both the earth
chain and the sun chain?

Kim
>For the sub-planes of these planes of consciousness see diagram
>C. They are also the seven parts of consciousness as manifesting
>on either plane. Must not be confused with seven principles.

JHE
Diagram "C" represents the sub-planes of each of the 7 prakritic
planes in figure "B"?

Kim
>For explanation of AAB see Cosmic Fire p. 116-7 (for want of a
>diagram by CWL)

JHE
I don't know whether AAB is representative of CWL.  Let's wait
until you have a diagram from CWL.

Kim
>On p. 116 is explained the position of seven planes of solar
>system as sub-planes of cosmic physical. On p. 817 the >planes
of the solar system is shown in the diagram "Cosmic >Physical
Plane"
>   In the diagram is shown the major principles and their
>correlations on the planes. They correspond to Auric body and
>atma-buddha-manas in CW p. 607 tabulation. Astral and physical
>bodies are ignored in the diagrams but treated of elsewhere

JHE
I don't have a copy of ~Cosmic Fire~ at the moment.  But a
comparison of ~Cosmic Fire~ to the ~CW~ seems to be outside of
the parameters of discussion anyway.

JHE:
>importantly, I think that what your wish to advocate this
>overall system goes far beyond the scope of our discussion--viz
>the compatibility of HPB and CWL.  I suggest that we begin by
>exploring the compatibility between HPB and CWL.

Kim
>With regard to planes and principles I hope. As I will not ask
>you to accept this notion of a common esoteric system it will
>have no influence on our discussion. I can retain it without any
>effect whatsoever as it is not forwarded as a proof.

JHE
With regard to CWL's "constitution of man" compared to HPB's
"constitution of man."   As for your "notion" of a common
esoteric system, I understand that you operate from this
assumption.  The reason why this or any other assumption can't be
forwarded as proof is because doing so is an exercise in circular
reasoning.

OK, so far, here is what I understand of your nomenclature:

Kim                        HPB                                CWL

Universal planes           Macrocosmic planes (B:CW XII:658)   ?
Solar physical body        Prakritic planes ("")               ?


JHE
>As for CWL, I have opinions based upon a lot of historical
>research.  So in this sense, he is not neutral ground for me
>either.

Kim
>I am sure you will be as neutral and objective as possible.
>In friendship,

JHE
Shouldn't be any problem.  I can easily separate him as a person
from his system.


Best
Jerry

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   |Jerry Hejka-Ekins,                      |
      |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT                |
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