Theos-Talk Archives (April 1996 Message tl01371)

>JHE to me:
>>Jerry, if this is your interpretation of what I wrote, then
>>I think our problem is a lot deeper than "semantics."

JS
>     It may well be, Jerry.  But how else am I to understand
>a body "coming into existence" at the very moment of death? Even
>our physical bodies take 9 months of gestation.  If you
>could give me a quote from MLs or HPB to the effect that
>the kama-rupa "comes into existence" at the moment of death,
>perhaps that would help me understand where you are coming
>from.

JHE
      First of all, Jerry, you are changing your interpretation of
what I wrote.  The comment you made that led me to suggest that
our problem is deeper than semantics was not that a body comes
into existence at the "moment of death"  but that:

">JHE was implying that after we die, we
 >will receive a body (kama-rupa) that was either standing
 >around waiting for us, or made by someone at that instant
 >in time just for us to inhabit, and until we enter it, it is
 >entirely independent of us.  I don't buy that."

JHE
      Well, Jerry, I don't "buy that" either, and it is very far
afield from our original exchange.  Below is the original post
which I think will make it clear that I did not say this:

-----------------------------------------------------------
[post from April 24th]

>JHE
>>>  For HPB, bodies are independent entities that
>>>come into existence either at the death of the physical body,
>>>or through an extraordinary act of will.
>
>JS
>>This is certainly true for the kama-rupa, but not so
>>for all bodies--the mayavi-rupa being used during life by those
>>who know how.
>
>JHE
>      Yes--as I wrote above--"through an extraordinary act of
>will."
____________________________________________________________

JHE
      As you can see here, you were actually in agreement with me
at the time, and only wanted to make the point that the Mayavi
rupa is used during life.  In response to your correction, I
responded by quoting myself to point out that I had already
covered that point.  Also, notice that there is no mention of
pre-existing bodies "standing around waiting for us."
      Now to continue quoting this same post:
------------------------------------------------------------
[continuation of the April 24th post]

>JHE
>>>  "Mental body" would
>>>also be an incorrect equivalent of "manas," because the they
>>>do not have independent existences as entities.
>
>JS
>>You have lost me here.  No bodies, however we
>>want to define them, have "independent existences."
>
>JHE
>      You lost me too.  You already admitted in your first
>comment above that the kama rupa is an independent entity that
>comes into [independent] existence after the death of the
>physical body.
----------------------------------------------------------------

JHE
      Now here, you seem to be balking at an earlier point that
you had already agreed upon.  Therefore, you appear to be
contradicting what you had already accepted earlier.  But still,
please note that there is still no mention of pre-existing bodies
"standing around waiting for us:"

JS
>I know you don't care for G de P, but let me quote him
>now anyway:

JHE
      Who told you that I don't care for Purucker?  The person
with whom I studied Theosophy for eighteen years was a Purucker
student, and a student of Boris de Zirkoff (who was one of GdeP's
students).  Our classes were regularly attended and guest lectured by
(among others) Boris deZirkoff, Geoffrey Barborka and Gordon
Plummer--all of whom studied under Purucker.  It is hardly
conceivable that I would spend 18 years voluntarily studying a
school of Theosophy that I did not enjoy.

JS (quoting Purucker)
      >"The kama-rupa, which becomes the vehicle for the
>unconscious or quasi-conscious entity in the kama-loka, is
>actually forming constantly during the life of the individual:
>in other words it is in a continual state of modification or
>change, these changes beginning when the incarnated entity as a
>child first feels itself conscious of mental and emotional
>affections, attractions, etc."
>FOUNTAIN-SOURCE OF OCCULTISM p. 579

JHE
      To the best of my understanding, your selected quote neither
contradicts what I had written to you, nor does it contradict
what I understand Blavatsky to have written on the subject.

JS
Now my own experiences and study dovetail with G de P.
If HPB or the Mahatmas say differently, then please give
me a quote or two, and maybe we can thrash it out as to
why G de P differs so much.

JHE
      Jerry, why after declining to discuss CWL and HPB with me,
do you want to "thrash it out" concerning GdeP and HPB?

JS
>As you can see from the above quote, the kama-rupa is with us
>all of our life, truly becoming the "kama-rupa" only after
>severance of the sutratman.

JHE
      Jerry, it is difficult to diagnose misreadings over the e-
mail, but my guess is that you are confusing the *principle*
called "kama rupa" (more correctly just called "kama"), with the
*body* called "kama rupa."  I admit that the distinction is not
very clear in the GdeP quote you selected, and if not read
carefully, it would be very easy to misread this passage.  But
GdeP is indeed making that distinction between the kama rupa
principle and the kama rupa body here.  This is why he uses the
phrase "....*truly* becoming the `kama rupa' *only* after
severance of the sutratman."

JS
>Guess what, Jerry?  Since it is here, now, during life, it is
>not too great a step to suggest that we can shift our
>consciousness to it during life, and use it.  And this is
>exactly what we all do;  magicians consciously, other folks
>unconsciously.
>     Jerry S.
>     Member, Ti


JHE
      Jerry, I don't know what magicians do, nor do I particularly
care.  But if you are alluding to "astral vision" then I think
you are confusing HPB's kama with CWL's "astral body."   If you
are refering to astral projection, then you are confusing the
kama rupa with the mayavi rupa.


------------------------------------------
   |Jerry Hejka-Ekins,                      |
      |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT                |
         |Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu   |
            |and CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org       |
               ------------------------------------------