Theos-Talk Archives (April 1996 Message tl00228)

Greg:
> And if ethics and
>morals were directed to her TS students to keep them out of trouble, would
>this also not apply to the occultists?  That they would be heedless is their
>problem and is not an excuse for not providing the insistence or warning that
>high ethics and morals should be followed.  I think HPB would giggle at the
>statement that Western students (or any for that matter) would no longer need
>it (them--ethics and morals)
	It probably should be, but it generally is not.  Most occult, magic,
New Age, and so on, schools in the West discuss the need for ethics and
morals in a quick lesson or lecture, and then move on to other things.  If you
believe in karma, then you will be as ethical as you can, just to reduce your
own karma burden a bit.  The idea in occultism is to do the "right" thing
spontaneously as if you had no other choice, rather than because someone
else said it was the right thing to do or because you gain merit by it or
because you gain a better future life for it, and so on.  It all boils down to
whether it inflates your ego (then it is wrong, no matter how right it may be)
or deflates or ignores your ego (then it is right, no matter how wrong it
may be).  For this reason, history shows us some very high initiates and
Adepts whose morals were very questionable by their local standards.
However, they were obeying a "higher law" as Jerry HE and others would
have it.  It is not up to us to question whether HPB was morally upright when
she trucked through the countryside with a bunch of men.  Nor about
her smoking or cussing or anything else.  Now, as it turns out, we also
should extend this courtesy to others, outside the theosophical community,
whose actions may seem  black and degraded to us, but whose heart
and whose conscious motivations we cannot ever know.  In short, it
seems to me that unless we can read the thoughts and emotions of
others, we should not judge them insofar as their morality is concerned.
	I never meant to suggest that Western students, high or low,
don't need ethics or morals, but rather that they no longer need such
warnings or morality lectures.  I, for one. rightly or wrongly, feel that
I am aware of the consequences (the "price" as Alan would say)
of most of my actions and no longer need reminding.

I like your quote from HPB and have no quarrel with it.  But when
you say  "There is not much in this which would exclude anyone, Indian
or Western" you are wrong.  The quote *only* applies to those who
follow the Bodhisattvic Path, by that or any other name.   It applies to
no one else.  Actually, there are damn precious few who follow that
particular path.

>Now it seems to me that our understanding of your phrase "bend over backwards
>to be morally upright" differs.  You seem to mean those who perceive
>themselves as morally upright, whereas I read it to mean, "try to hold to the
>highest moral ideal".
	If you constantly strive hard to "hold to the highest moral ideal"
you will trip over your own shoestrings at some point.  This is something
that beginners, those who just start on the Path, may have to do, and
have to worry over for a time.  I would hope, Greg, that you are past this
point.
I have already written volumes on theos-l concerning ethics, and do not
care to repeat myself.  Suffice it to say that it is my opinion that those
who worry about maintaining themselves in a morally upright position
holding steadfastly to the highest moral ideal may make very nice
theosophists, but lousy occultist or magicians or shamans for that
matter.  These type of folks are on the very first stage of Kohlberg's
moral stages, and will never do well with occultism.  I am not saying
that they are wrong, or that they should avoid ethics and morals--
that is not my point (I have already been fried flame-dry for that mistaken
idea).  I mean only to say that they need to make the very best of their
morals and ethics, and then move on, letting ethics be spontaneous
and not forced.  One has to move to the very highest of Kohlberg's
moral stages in order to get anywhere in occultism.  One interesting
peculiarity with Kohlberg's stages is that from the perspective of those
on the lower levels, those on the highest levels appear to have no
morals at all.  This is because those who are on the lower levels
are overly concerned with appearances.  Its something to think about.


>This was not my point, for ethics and morality should be followed, especially
>by occultists, because it is the right thing to do.
	Ah, but whose ethics would you have them follow?
Let me give you one of Kohlberg's cases:  A man has a wife who is
dying of a sickness.  The medicine that she needs is at the pharmacy,
but the man is poor and has not got the large sum of money asked
for the medicine.  Does he (1) let the wife die? or (2) steal the medicine?
Those on the lower end of the scale always chose 1 because it is
the legal thing to do.  Those at the high end of the scale always choose
2 because their wife is more important to them than the law.  So
sometimes, Greg, ethics comes down to doing what you inwardly
feel is the right thing to do at the time, and choices are seldom easy.
Laws and local customs sometimes must be broken.  Ethics
sometimes requires the breaking of ethics.  Who are we to judge
another person?

	Jerry S.
	Member, TI