Theos-Talk Archives (November 1995 Message tl00008)

Jerry S:

>Eldon thanks for the nice quotes about zazen but I don't see
>what they have to do with "escape the necessity of physical
>incarnation" or " to seek rebirth on higher planes globes."

They emphasize a practice where the eyes are kept half-open
and the attention is on the koan on the meditative practice
and any psychical or other-plane experiences are dismissed
as counterproductive.

>The quotes are all about maya and avoiding/ignoring the
>mayavic illusions that will come to us in meditation. You seem
>to be saying tha Zen seeks to escape from the necessity of
>incarnation.

No not to escape the necessity of incarnation. Rather to
develop and flower the Buddha nature in the world to develop
active bodhichita or compassion in action.

>It is my understanding that all of the Mahayana
>schools teach that we should become a bodhisattva and
>deliberately return to physical existence.

I was giving the Zen example to show that there were practices
where the psychical was put aside. This does not discount the
fact that as a highly-developed individual psychical abilities
will flower of their own accord. And there is always the fact
that we do eventually move onto other worlds. The human lifewave
won't be on Globe D forever and we can become Fifth Rounders
through extended periods of incarnation I'd say on the other
Globes. But for the aspirant the new person on the Path Zen
shows us an example of a Mahayana practice that does not seek
escape from this world as its goal which is what the Hinayana
path seeks.

>There may be a Hinayana school whose goal is escape but even
>there the idea is seeing the physical and spiritual as one thing
>and so what is there to escape from?

For them the path may be to become karmaless to seek creating
causes that bring us back into existence on worlds of causes
and instead to persist in a high form of devachan bordering on
nirvana for vast periods of time. They eventually have to
find rebirth when the human lifewave catches up with them but
that may not be for several Rounds.

>And if you were to ask any Buddhist about rebirth on other
>Globes they might think you were pulling their leg.

But they would be seeking rebirth in the higher lokas in
what the Tibetans call "dewachen" the realm of pure bliss.

-- Eldon