Theos-Talk Archives (September 1995 Message tl00223)

>PROVE GOD.

>The bible says that we are overcomers by the blood of the lamb and
>the word of our testimony.

You can't use the Bible to prove "God" since we don't accord any
special authority to it. First, you must define what you mean by
"God", since there are dozens of possible meanings. Then you have
to argue that the characterists of your description are better than
what anyone else can offer.

>First....I have four children and a godly wife. I have a Systems Engineer
>position that brings home the bacon. I attempt to keep versed in many
>areas of knowledge...for me it is primarily...dealing with the occults or
>christian like religions.

The term "occult" means hidden. It is similar in meaning to "esoteric" or
hidden from profane eyes, or "gnostic".

>The point is what is it that separates us or makes us different besides the
>fact that we live in different in states/continents?

>The JOY of the Lord is my strength. Where does your joy come from?

I would suggest that it is your sense of joy in life itself, and you use
the mental image of a "Lord" to describe that experience. I won't discount
your feelings, just your description of what is actually happening.

>Have you ever taken any drugs? Well you realize the effect...because the
>reactions to the drugs your body goes through is opposite to normal
>reactions. The change is real. Without the drug there would be no change.

Anything that clouds the reason and dulls the senses could be avoided.
And this includes rigid, dogmatic belief, that holds the mind as rigidly
as would too much to drink.

>Can I see God?
>I cannot see the wind....but I can see where it has been.
>Can I hear God?
>Can I touch God?
>
>The answer to all of these is yes.

You have a sense of the spiritual and choose to call it "God". Your
explanation of things comes from a tightly-defined belief system that
you are perhaps taught not to dare deviate from. Because of this, your
beliefs get in the way of your true enjoyment of the mystery of life.

>I have hundreds of examples that testify to the Power of God in the lives of
>those around which the Lord has allowed me to experience and in my life too.

Again, you are talking about the power of the spiritual, not the power
of *your concept of "God"*.

>[telling a story of a conversation]
>In the one statement (the message from God) I was a tool of which grabbed
>her heart.

There are many ways to explain how you came to know the right thing to say.
One is that you picked up on her thoughs. The experience you have does not
prove your explanation.

>Where does your Joy come from? Even in darkness and despair.

The universe is rooted in the spiritual. There is joy throughout life.
It does not come from anyone's religious dogmas, it is part of the
fabric of life.

>I challenge you. God created us...without his presence in our life there is
>no true peace...true love...true joy.

Not "without his presence," but rather without the presence of the
spiritual.

>If this is true then even after you
>get the Wife, the kids, the house, the dollars, the career, the sporting
>trophies, the vacation or receive
>wisdom and enlightenment for theos-l...there will still be emptiness.

Agreed that external materials do nothing for a spiritual life. But a
spiritual life does not arise because of a dogmatic belief system, and
membership in some church. I'd say that it's lucky, in fact, that it
can happen in such an environment, which is intrincally hostile to
the spiritual.

>I love the life God has provided...but without acknowledging his divine
>actions in my life...I would not enjoy the blessings of this world as much
>as I do. I would come to expect them...and most likely neglect them. The
>more I am reminded about God's interactions in my life...the more I am
>reaffirmed about his power and desire to use me and mine.

This sense of dependence upon an external being hampers your ability to
be a force for good in the world. I'd say that you need to take more
self-initiative to be a benefit to others. And providing benefit to others
does not come by converting them to a particular brand or sect of an
organized religon. The value comes from actual things that you do, not from
maximizing some recruitment head count.

>I have cast out devils...healed the sick...delivered men & women out of
>darkness...etc. But not by my strength. (I do not have the drugs to
>give...as an anology) There is but one divine physician. I am a tool. To be
>used for His glory.

The strength of the spiritual transcends our personal capabilities. But
it does not come from any supreme being. The spiritual is part of life,
things could not exist without it. And we can give expression to it, even
though we don't fully contain or own it ourselves.

>Another challenge...try for a moment...a season to look at everything as if
>the Lord's hand was directly placed apon it. Look at the ocean...as its
>beauty as a work of the Holy one. Look at your children as a gift from God.

Everything can be considered a "gift". But the gift comes from the givers.
Each of us is making a particular gift to the world, even the flowers in
the field make their own gift to the beauty of the world. The give does not
come externally, it is self-made.

>For a moment slide the mystical and the spooky natural aside.

The mystial is a more direct approach, because you are dealing with life
itself, apart from any potentially confused mental concepts you use to
describe it. And there's nothing "spooky" about it.

>Simply open your eyes to the wonderous creation. Can you look apon the sunset
>or a heart felt smile without recognizing the Holy One?

We share a sense of the grandness. We don't share the same mental ideas
about what it means.

>For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen,
>being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and
>Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

We agree on the wonders of the spiritual and the value in sharing it. Where
we part is in our philosophical frameworks that we use to describe things.
Can you make this distinction: between your belief framework and your
direct appreciation of life?

-- Eldon