Theos-Talk Archives (August 1995 Message tl00260)

Rick,

You began with a question regarding Leadbeater's qualifications. You next
became confused by someone on the board discussing a religious point of view.

You next wrote a discourse in answer to your own question. I was very
tolerant about everything you said, even the part about him not being an
Initiate but a psychic, thinking you were sharing your point of view, but
then you wrote the following:

>Very little that is enlightening and soul-elevating comes from Mr.
Leadbetter's >"embroidering" as Alan puts it, and there the proof is in the
pudding. Psychics merely >entertain, themselves most of all. Spiritual
teachers present a path that one may
>follow, which lifts the inner nature to self-study, generosity, and all the
>other virtues of the bodhisattva. Leadbetter added nothing to the path HPB
>and the Mahatmas showed, and in fact he ignored or obscured much with his
>tireless claims to "new" teachings, "new" revelations.
>
>THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE is very eloquent on the path of the disciple, as
>well as the dangers of the astral plane, the "hall of learning," where one
>may find "the blossoms of life, but under every flower a serpent coiled."
>(page 7)
>
With Leadbeater's books being in our library and his close acquaintance with
many members of The Theosophical Society, including Presidents, the facts
don't agree with what you are claiming. He co-authored a beautiful book,
TALKS ON THE PATH OF OCCULTISM, which comments on THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE,
LIGHT ON THE PATH, and AT THE FEET OF THE MASTER. Since you would agree
that this is where a theosophist's interest lies, why is it necessary to
single out any one of us and make us feel unequal to the task of theosophy?
If Leadbeatter wasn't qualified, perhaps he gave courage to so many others
who weren't qualified when they began. He assisted in making theosophy known
to me, in spite of strong opinion against him it would seem, and I wonder if
you'll be able to do the same. If you find strong opinion against what you
are writing, would you continue to write and teach as he did? If one person
claims they did receive the "path" from Leadbeatter, that he was
enlightening and soul-elevating and contributed greatly to their
understanding, is it fair to write that he was not? The point some of us are
trying to make is that he was helpful and that we LOVE him. I think you are
actually taking out your anger on people writing here because we aren't
"initiates" and we aren't "writing anything helpful to the teachings," etc.

I think you might be interested that H.P.B. uses this word "LOVE" so seldom
in THE SECRET DOCTRINE that I can remember the quote. She said, "I love
them, too." referring to the Masters. Because she doesn't write frequently
that she loves, does that mean love is an unncessary qualification for the
study of theosophy? We don't believe so. I believe you may have good
intentions in joining theos-l, and that "beginning" is not always the way we
hope it to be. I hope that this is just an intense beginning for you
showing that you are moved to the study of theosophy because of a lack which
you find in the religious world today and correspondingly maybe you notice a
lack here on theos-l.

Yes, I found Patrick's use of certain terms to be an emotional sort of
meandering. It's nice that you thought it necessary to "check" this sort of
writing. You "checking" what someone may wish to write "grossifies" us and
contributes to a more mentally-oriented discussion group.

(Rick)
Is Theosophy becoming a religion or religions? If so, is this the decline of
Theosophy? What will we leave behind that future generations may benefit
from? Watching the decline of Christianity in Palestine and the decline of
Buddhism in Asia one becomes quite filled with grief and heartache, and I
would hate to witness in my lifetime the same for Theosophy.

I am glad to hear of so many of your emotions because I think they are
genuine.

(Patrick)
Hierarchy, in this context, does not mean authoritarian but relational
identification. There is complete freedom from all personal authority in
spiritual realms.

Patrick, I'm glad you are so POSITIVE because my own father was a positive
thinker. This morning I woke up thinking I had met the "guardians of hell"
and what they said to me was that "I would forget that such a thing as
freedom ever existed." How do I face these guardians? Are there people on
earth who feel it necessary for them to enforce religious law? How many
people on theos-l would allow hell to exist? For myself, I would prefer to
"lose hell" to somehow go beyond its reach. I may reluctantly agree to
accept it as a "necessary evil" (Ha Ha) for growth of the soul. Isn't this
similar to the idea that pain helps us grow? However, in order for hell to
exist, are we required to lend our own thoughts and energy to it? Do I have
to periodically enter hell and do time there so as an "institution" its
goals and practically uses can improve on our disproving?

(Paul)
Various Theosophists have been working toward this idea for
years; Stephan Hoeller and others have written on the
theme. I'd say, on the issue of "possibilities," that there
are two sides at least. First, seeing the existence of Masters
as a possibility because of the overall pattern we see in the
universe (evolution of consciousness). Second, seeing the
particular stories about the Masters as symbolic of human
possibilities.

Paul, I'd like to think that the Masters brought Rick to us, because much of
the direction on the list seemed to be geared toward helping you present at
your upcoming engagement. While this may be noble work, do we each have
work to do for them at a different level? I know that identifying the
Masters as human has an unsurpassed appeal to you, but while their
activities CAN be identified by someone as sharp as you and shared with us
all, and their words are there for people like Liesel to ponder and repeat,
some people look to their "thoughts." Entering the stream of their thoughts
and consciousness, staying in harmony with them, the plan, etc., these are
some of the meditations which theosophists might try.
>
> Undoubtedly the historians would be inclined to this perspective.
>Yet even the most historically-oriented of Theosophists have
>been heretofore disinclined to approach the Masters in this way.

A historian has a different identity of theosophy than a "man of the world"
might have or even than that had by "those who are trying to live a
spiritual life and aid in their great work."

(Arthur)
> Those who are concerned with human values and caring would consider the
> Masters as emblematic of the relational accompaniment. We are not alone, we
> are guided by Wisdom figures and we can establish a relationship to them.
>
(Paul)
> Those interested in mentoring or spiritual guiding might be oriented this way.
>And those who are attracted to Theosophy as a universal
>solvent, reconciling diverse traditions. The ideal of a single
>category of persons who are responsible for all great spiritual
>movements somehow gives people a feeling of connection and
>affirmation.

What about those who are alienated by religion or society? Aren't the
Masters themselves alienated?

(Arthur)
> It depends whether the senser is introverted or extroverted. The introvert
> would strive to establish as physical sense of inward peace that is derived
> from contemplation of the image of the master whereas the extravert would
> go in for the more spiritualistic phenomenon associated with spiritual
> power in the world.

(Paul)
>OK. But might not the e/i preference affect all the other
>choices, too? For example my thinking is extroverted, so I am
>more interested in collecting facts than analyzing them.

If we could be Masters, would we sit in meditation and solve problems in the
world? Would we gather around us hosts of angels and forces waiting to do
our bidding? HPB had quite a bit of control over the elemental kingdoms it
would seem. Once we accept the existence of powers, how can we use them to
attract others to the "path?" In THE YOGA SUTRAS OF PATANJALI powers are
presented as a very natural outcome of meditation. With Leadbeater as an
example, couldn't we suppose that we, too, will find this of particular
fascination as a discussion point in attracting others to "living the life."
There is so much of the world that doesn't know or is unconcerned with
mankind's future as powerful beings, because it isn't relevant for today.
If we align ourselves with the path of occultism and then begin to notice
powers within our nature similar to those we find in other noteworthy
theosophists, will we be able to continue in society as normal human beings?
I think that knowing that the masters have been able to do so with some
secrecy of their true "thoughts" and "activities (at a thought level, but
naturally eclipsing somewhat with the physical plane)" is very beneficial
and should encourage others to keep striving in every possible way in their
own lives.

I want Paul to say you can live in society and develop yourself fully with
these great teachers as examples and to some extent Leadbeater is an
example. If I chose to discuss "psychic" activities here, does it deserve
ridicule by those who want us to live "unagreeably" inclined to accept
things without first hand knowledge? By being friends and acquaintances
with someone who reads into theosophy that 1) as once The Theosophical
Society served as an "objection" to false notions that were being spread
widely in regards to eastern teachings, so 2) we shall always serve as an
"objection" to false teachings regarding ANY esoteric teaching, are we
thereby incapable of peaceful discussion, because objection must be so
highly regarded. Even first-hand knowledge has its drawbacks because
theosophy might be "lowered" instead of "raised" by it.

Rick, is it systematizing to take an original purpose and expand it? I
would agree with Patrick if it is and say this is acceptable. Could the
above also be what Patrick describes as revelations? Could a revelation be
the discovery that a teaching is false?

I have gone on and on and on, but please allow me one more short comment
regarding "game over?"

Prayers are regarding not only my words but my thoughts and the establishing
of good will at a mental level. This is necessary in my life and I welcome
the use of prayers here on theos-l. Safe journeying to all those who are
working to assist with the spiritual life of mankind. No gift is too small
and all of those who are trying to live by the sacred precepts should be
welcome, Leadbeater included.