Theos-Talk Archives (June 1995 Message tl00083)

guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk (Dr. A.M.Bain) writes:

> > For example, do you believe in "astral bodies" or "causal
> > bodies"? Is ther good evidence to support a belief in some kind
> > of "life after death?"
>
> I have exerience of Out of the Body activity, and have seen my
> own physical body from outside of it.  That is evidence, albeit
> subjective evidence.  I could call this OOB self an "astral"
> body, perhaps.  Again, "subjectively," I have met dead people.  I

All of these experiences are documented in the literature on
lucid dreaming (e.g.  Stephen La Berge, "The World of Lucid
Dreaming.") Of course they are subjectively real -- that's what
lucidity is about, but are they objectively real? To date, as far
as I know, no one in a sleep laboratory has presented evidence
that externalization actually occurs.  Many people have dreamed
that they saw their own sleeping body, and could describe what
they were wearing, etc.  But verbatim reports of conversations of
people in adjoining rooms or reading of "hidden" messages that
one could see only from 3 meters above the ground have so far
eluded validation.

This is an interesting finding, because it offers a new
possibility by which the writings of many clairvoyants, including
Leadbeater, could be assessed.  Was Leadbeater deluded when he
described his "layer-cake" model? Was he in a lucid state when he
met the souls of deceased people? I'm suspending judgment until I
can obtain proof.

For me, the first stage of such a proof is to develop lucidity,
which is apparently not impossible for most people with
sufficient dedication (for those with WWW access, see
http://www.lucidity.com, or read the USEnet group
alt.dreams.lucid.)

The second stage would then be to participate in experiments with
proper protocols, that will allow externalization to be proven.
Only then can one _scientifically_ accept such phenomena.  Of
course, _intuitively_ such phenomena may already be accepted,
which they are in my case, but the question of objective,
scientific proof is always going to be difficult for theosophists
to achieve in relation to some of the statements that we make.

> When teaching - can only be done by word of mouth accompanying
> the literature - I always tell new (and old) students, "This is
> the teaching as I have received/experienced it.  DO NOT BELIEVE A
> WORD I TELL YOU - CHECK IT OUT, get your _own_ experience."

Yes, Amen.  Hand-in-hand with experience of course must go the
rational, critical faculties, and these may be honed by engaging
in discussion with other interested parties.

cheers
Paul Gillingwater