Theos-Talk Archives (April 1995 Message tl00179)

Keith: < I have found that if you try  to examine something
closely in the dream world, it does strange things.>

My own experiences agree with this, Keith.

Keith: < which is primary, the dream world or the real
world?>

I would say that both are illusory or maya.  However, either
seems more real relative to the other.  In other words,
during the waking state, the dream state seems more unreal,
and vice versa (I can often recall physical events and
memories while dreaming.  I can also recall past dreams). If
we consider divinity as REAL, and each of its expressions
(the Cosmic Planes) as more unreal because deeped into
spacetime, then we could say with some validity that the
dream world (astral plane) is more real than the physical
plane simply because it is closer to the Divine Plane.

Keith: <...demons that came for physical intercourese one
supposes, though how a dream entity could have physical sex
is a stretch.>

Sex on the astral plane is via merging bodies together rather
than how it is done physically.  One "feels" the other as
part of oneself.  Most people find that it is actually a
deeper and more intimate experience than physical sex.

Keith: < Some believe we travel to the astral plane between
the earth and moon in our dreams.  What does the Kabala say
on this, Alan? or the Encochian system, Jerry?>

The area from the Earth to the Moon corresponds to the region
of the Watchtower of Earth, in Enochian Magic (in my system
of it anyway).  Personally, I feel that solar regions have a
correspondence with the cosmic planes because the inner
mirrors the outer and vice versa, but I do not believe that
we actually _go_ to the Moon or Venus, or any of the planets.
We _go_ inward rather than outward, but the inward experience
has many parallels with an outward journey.

Keith: <The feeling I got was a confirmation that dream
entities are "messagers" between the worlds - like the
original angels where messengers and provide a glue between
the spiritual and material realms.>

Messengers are, in a sense, what they are.  Your question as
to the reality of dream people is exactly the same as the
question that I am asked a lot:  Do the Angels and other
entities described in Enochian Magic really exist?  (I would
think that a lot of theosophists ask the same question about
the many deiities that HPB mentions.) This question, like
many others, cannot be answered.  The answer is completely
esoteric and cannot be put into words other than to say that
in a way they are psychic projections, and in another way
they are external entities, and in yet another way they are
both.  Magic takes the practical pragmatic view that we
should treat them _as_if_ they were real.  Doing this helps
the magic to work, while disbelief assures that it won't
work.  Of course with dreams, if you are lucid dreaming, then
you will think them to be unreal because you will know that
it is _only_ a dream.  But if you consider a dream to be as
real as waking experience, then those folks who you meet
up with will seem real.  How you react depends on your
worldview (many times your dreaming self has a worldview that
is different from that of your waking self or ego and so
you will do things in a dream that you would never do in
the waking state).

Keith: < You had to be there to get the feeling of import to
her off- handed remark.>

Right!  In other words, this experience was meaningful to
you.  We often have meaningful experiences in our dreams that
seem like jibberish after we wake up.  Psychology would say
that the unconscious part of our psyche is trying to tell us
something.  Magic would say that we had a true and valid
experience on the astral plane (the astral, BTW, is no more
maya than the physical - HPB's warning was given to remind us
of this - astral experiences seem so meaningful and real that
a lot of people consider them to be without any maya).

Keith: <I noticed the topic of lucid dreaming mentioned
earlier.  Has anyone else received a "communitcation"?>

No, but I have been lucid dreaming for years.  I used this
technique to eliminate nighmares which I used to have as a
child all the time.  Haven't had one for many years now.
Whenever a dream started to get out of hand, I would step in
like a movie director and stop it, and redirect the action in
a more pleasant way.  It worked so well, that nowdays my
dreams don't even start to go offtrack (i.e., toward a
nightmare orientation).

Jerry S.