Theos-Talk Archives (March 1994 Message tl00001)

Jerry H-E,

I notice that my last message got posted twice even though
I had sent it only once.  For those who may be paying for
access by the minute, I should mention that I normally
change the title of the message if I have to send a quick
follow-up message after the first one, so that if you see
two messages in quick succession with the same title,
you can assume that the listserver has goofed,  or
somewhere along the line something has gone wrong (
therefore there is no need to pick up the 2nd message).

I am having difficulty getting back to my 'normal' routine
after 3 days off-site; there is so much to do here!

Before I begin response to your last message, I have an
observation to make, somewhat related to what Terry has
also suggested.  I hope we all have learnt from the exchange
of messages regarding AAB/HPB so far, certainly I have learnt
quite a bit.  In order to 'speed up' the process of comparison
of teachings (rather than 'yapping' about all and sundry, as I
often do) perhaps we should include in each message either a
specific teaching of HPB or AAB, or include a commentary on a
teaching.  My favorite part of the Bailey books is the teaching
on 'Serving Humanity'. I'd like to, perhaps on a weekly basis,
include a quote from Bailey for you (and others on the network)
to comment on, with respect to its 'consistency' with HPB
teachings.  My impression as of this writing is that THERE IS
NOTHING IN THE BAILEY TEACHINGS THAT IS INCONSISTENT WITH HPB
writings but Bailey has given out a lot of info which may not
be available in the HPB writings (and vice-versa).

>      Yes he did have his shortcomings, but yours is not a very
> typical reaction when one reads this book and finds that CWL was
> a pathological liar (In this case, "lie" means just that).  You
> became very upset when you thought that I suggested that FB lied,
> but for Leadbeater, whose lies were systematic, and proven to be
> lies, your only comment is that he has short comings?  Here is a
> man that lied about his birth date, lied about his family
> circumstances, lied about having a brother, announced that
> Jinarajadasa was the reincarnation of a brother that never
> existed etc.  Does this mean that you continue to accept
> Leadbeater's esoteric teachings without question on the basis
> that he claimed to be an Arhat, even though you now know that he
> lied about almost everything else that we can verify through
> records?
>

I told you before that I have not read much written by CWL.
The last part of your statement i.e."Does this mean that.."
is misleading, to say the least.
(a)I have said before that if someone claims to be an Arhat,
he is definitely NOT an Arhat (so his writing should be
read assuming that he is certainly below the rank of an Arhat).
(b)If you are trying to link it with AAB writing, I have stated
before that AAB has been critical
of CWL in her autobiography, and in other AAB books there is
only one reference to CWL, which is just an observation, neither
too flattering nor very critical.  Certainly I did NOT get the
impression from the book that the author is somehow implicating
AAB also as a lia
r (if he has, pl let me have a reference).
(c)After reading some chapters of
THE ELDER BROTHER I have certainly learnt more about CWL, which
is useful information for me, but my attitude is such that I donot
believe in making a big deal about dead people who may have lied
pathologically when they were alive.  When I thought you
had suggested that FB lied,  it was my responsibility to let you
know how I felt (there is no way for me to reach CWL to tell
him not to lie, even if I wanted to give him that message!)
(d)Who among us is without faults? If someone were to discover
50 years from today that you or I had what he thinks 'some
terrible' faults of character, will that negate everything
that you or I say when we are alive?  I donot believe that
there is sufficient evidence to DISREGARD CWL COMPLETELY.  He
may have truth mixed with falsities in his writings, and
it is important to keep that in mind while reading anything written
by him.  I donot think that anyone has demonstrated (like Tillett
has in the case of CWL) that AAB or HPB were (pathological
or otherwise) liers, although Paul in his books has shown that
HPB did not shy away from using 'blinds' when needed to 'further'
the overall cause of esotericism.  Based on this, if I only have
so much time to devote to esoteric study, I'd much rather spend
it on studying HPB or AAB writing rather than CWL or ABesant or
other theosophical authors.


>
>      She learned this from the Besant E.S..  Members were
> admonished against the discussion of personality aspects of
> others in the work.  Besant also tried to press this rule on the
> exoteric T.S.  At one point she expelled an entire Lodge of 800
> members in Australia because they insisted upon voicing their
> protest over her promotion of Leadbeater.   In other words, this
> rule of silence was used to control the membership and to keep
> them in ignorance.  The irony is that the E.S. members turned out
> to be the biggest gossips.

If you have read the AAB biography, then you should know that AAB
spearheaded the 'back to HPB' movement; need I give you once more
references where she has explained how she regarded the Besant ES/
TS leadership as counterproductive vis-a-vis the original TS
objectives?  I can see that it is hard for you to visualize an
organization where ALL emphasis is on TEACHING and NONE on
personality aspects of the people involved in the teaching.
I donot blame you, I am merely pointing out that my preferred
type of an esoteric organization is the one with emphasis on
teaching and total de-emphasis on personality aspects.

>      It takes years of study to understand TSD.  This is the
> unspoken reason that I get down on you whenever you proclaim that
> this or that statement in TSD "is just like what AAB says."  Your
> level of understanding of TSD is evident from your comments on
> it.  You are reading a lot into H.P.B. based upon your
> experiences and understanding of AAB.  Since HPB came first, and
> the Bailey writings are supposed to expand on HPB, it should be
> the other way around.  I never came out with this before, because
> it would have been a very high handed sounding thing to write.
> Since you now state that you only understood a "fraction of the
> material,"  I can now state what I was hinting at.

(a)Bailey writings are NOT an expansion of HPB writings
(in the manner of GdeP) but rather an extension of HPB
teachings.  As an example, HPB talked about the basic unity
of the Kosmos and the individual human being (see IG Teachings,
p.vii first paragraph).  AAB has shown (primarily in TCF) how
this is so, in that there is an ENTITY, a stupendous Being
'in whom we live and move and have our being', and HE in turn is
but a part of an even more stupendous Being, etc. etc. You
may reject this extension of HPB teaching if it does not appeal
to you.  If you want to show me or others how it is INCONSISTENT
with HPB teaching, I'd be very interested in knowing that.  So
far no one has shown me anything in AAB teaching that is
INCONSISTENT with HPB teaching.

(b)HPB/AAB have both said that there are seven levels of meaning
to their teaching.  How many levels have you been able to
interpret HPB TEACHINGS at? It is with this in mind that I say
that I hardly understand 10-15% of what HPB or AAB may have
meant.

>      It hasn't been done for HPB yet.  Most people still
> interpret HPB in terms of neo-theosophy, and/or through a
> victorian paradigm.  HPB has to be rediscovered.  Maybe in the
> next century.

This also needs to be done for AAB writings!

>      There is a conference in Madras in June that we might be
> going to.  If you are in the area, we may meet you then.  My
> daughter will be visiting in August, but the date isn't set yet.
>

What is the conference in June at Madras about?  We are
planning to leave here on June 16 and come back on July 21 or so,
but will be in New Delhi (possibly in Bombay for a few days,
which is still several hundred miles away from Madras).  What are
the dates for the conference and who all is going to be in
attendance?

Thanks for the vegan recipe. I hope to include a quote from AAB
next time I write.  I should also take this opportunity to
thank Mike Grenier for pointing out the quote from Sylvia
Cranston's biography of HPB.

Fraternally,

Arvind