Theos-Talk Archives (February 1994 Message tl00082)

Arvind

> I read also the first two chapters of THE ELDER BROTHER over
> the weekend and have gained fresh insights into the workings of
> the mind of Leadbeater.  We all have our shortcomings and he
> certainly was no exception.

     Yes he did have his shortcomings, but yours is not a very
typical reaction when one reads this book and finds that CWL was
a pathological liar (In this case, "lie" means just that).  You
became very upset when you thought that I suggested that FB lied,
but for Leadbeater, whose lies were systematic, and proven to be
lies, your only comment is that he has short comings?  Here is a
man that lied about his birth date, lied about his family
circumstances, lied about having a brother, announced that
Jinarajadasa was the reincarnation of a brother that never
existed etc.  Does this mean that you continue to accept
Leadbeater's esoteric teachings without question on the basis
that he claimed to be an Arhat, even though you now know that he
lied about almost everything else that we can verify through
records?

> One thing I should point out about
> AS and the Bailey writings which strikes me as totally
> different from the many other theosophical movements is the
> utter lack of discussion of the personality aspects of Bailey
> or other teachers discussed by Bailey.  The focus in AS is on
> teaching alone, and 'impersonality', although the study of the
> teachings of other disciples/initiates down the ages is greatly
> encouraged.

     She learned this from the Besant E.S..  Members were
admonished against the discussion of personality aspects of
others in the work.  Besant also tried to press this rule on the
exoteric T.S.  At one point she expelled an entire Lodge of 800
members in Australia because they insisted upon voicing their
protest over her promotion of Leadbeater.   In other words, this
rule of silence was used to control the membership and to keep
them in ignorance.  The irony is that the E.S. members turned out
to be the biggest gossips.

> BTW, do you know anything about Andrew Jackson, mentioned by
> Tillet, as the only other person apart from AAB to have
> supplied a comprehensive view of the universe?

     I think you are thinking of Andrew Jackson Davis.  He was a
Spiritualist, and Clairvoyant.  H.P.B. respected his talents.  I
have most everything he wrote here.  His descriptions sound very
little like the Theosophical stuff.  If you are looking for
clairvoyant confirmation of AAB or HPB teachings in his writings,
I think you will be disappointed for the most part.

> I also feel embarrased by my discovery over the weekend
> on the very first page, first paragraph of the text proper
> in TCF (p.3):

> "The teaching which is given in this Treatise on Cosmic Fire
> might be formulated in the following terms.  These postulates
> are simply extensions of the three fundamentals to be found
> in the Proem in the first volume of the
> Secret Doctrine by HPB. Students are recommended to study them
> carefully; in this way their understanding of the Treatise will
> be greatly aided.

[quotes deleted]

> Based on the above, it would appear as if TCF is an 'expansion'
> of TSD, not SD.

     I didn't miss it.  It has always been evident, even by a
cursory glance through TCF that she is attempting to write an
"expansion" of TSD.  This is something I never questioned.  My
question concerns her other statements that TCF is the
"psychological key" to TSD.  That, on the face of it is an
oxymoron.

     H.P.B. recommended a careful study of the three fundamental
propositions before beginning to read TSD.  She also recommended
that all of the teachings in TSD be related back to those
propositions.  One of my strategies in teaching TSD is to follow
this advice.

>I think we may never find out the reference to the
>quote from HPB on the 'psychological key' to SD (unless
>someone like Mr. Tillet decides to undertake a thorough research
>on AAB'; actually I'd myself like to do this but the time is
> not right as yet for me).

     It shouldn't be difficult to find.  The AS archives must
have the answer to this, if one exists.  It doesn't take a
Gregory Tillett to request permission to see the documentation.
It seems to me that any devoted member of the AS should have even
more right than Tillett to see this documentation--unless the AS
has something to hide.

     On the other hand, if this prediction is taken from
something that HPB wrote, then there are many researchers who
have combed though HPB's writings as thoroughly as Tillett did
through Leadbeater.  I know these people, but they have found
nothing in HPB's writings or even in oral history to support
AAB's statement.

> Anyways, I read the first 76 pages (understood perhaps a
> fraction of the material; no different than the case when I was
> reading TSD) and will go back to one of your previous messages
> where you had given some comments on these to see if I can add
> anything.

     It takes years of study to understand TSD.  This is the
unspoken reason that I get down on you whenever you proclaim that
this or that statement in TSD "is just like what AAB says."  Your
level of understanding of TSD is evident from your comments on
it.  You are reading a lot into H.P.B. based upon your
experiences and understanding of AAB.  Since HPB came first, and
the Bailey writings are supposed to expand on HPB, it should be
the other way around.  I never came out with this before, because
it would have been a very high handed sounding thing to write.
Since you now state that you only understood a "fraction of the
material,"  I can now state what I was hinting at.

> I was talking to a friend of mine the other day (Tom Koshy,
> works for MCI and has been into Ancient Wisdom for a long time)
> regarding the difference in writing styles of HPB and AAB, and
> he commented that KH in one of the Mahatma letters had lamented
> that "HPB is being too intellectual... I wish she would stop
> worrying about quoting so many authors and get on with the
> transmission of the pure teaching" (Tom said something like
> this, his exact words I donot remember and of course he did not
> give me any reference; I am reproducing this 'paraphrase' of
> what KH said to see if you or anyone else reading this can
> remember this type of a quote by KH).  Tom and I both have
> benefited by reading Bailey and are beginner students of HPB.

     I've been through THE MAHATMA LETTERS TO APS many times,
both alone and in groups studies.  I don't recall anything like
this quote, though they where uncomplimentary to HPB sometimes.
HPB did say something to this effect concerning Besant--that she
was all intellect and no spirituality.  Perhaps your fiend was
thinking of this.  Anyway, I would like the reference.

> I donot know much about Tyagi but the group of
> which he is a part talk about Dion Fortune and her teachings,
> among  other things.  I have several of Dion's books but have
> read none of them.  Have you read any of her books?  Any
> comments on her?

     I've tried to read Fortune, but can't get into her.  I
carefully read a biography of her a few years ago, that gave me
the beginnings of a data base of research concerning her, but
haven't done much with it.  She had some ideas that struck me as
pretty strange.  There are some women's spirituality groups that
are into her.

> What about Cal Ins for Integral Studies and the JFK school
> somewhere near LA?  You are right, it is kind of late for
> me to start on a PhD (I did 36 hours of course work towards
> a PhD in Operations Research after my MS a long time back
> in 1976 and actually have no interest to pursue that, even
> if I was allowed to take advantage of my previous work). I
> am much more interested in doing something like what Tillet
> did, or what Paul is doing, or even just having the
> chance to sit all day at home and study HPB/AAB and write
> 'hints' for others if some ideas come to my mind.

     I don't know anything about the JFK school.  As for the Cal.
Institute for Integral Studies, I met people involved with it
some years ago.  At that time, the University was not accredited,
and may not be now.  This is typical of a lot of private
Colleges.  They do innovative things, but lack the resources to
also teach classes that meet accreditation requirements--or more
often, just have no desire to meet those requirements.
Personally, I would never go to an unaccredited University
because the degree is worthless in most circumstances.

     You would have done better to have majored in English or
Philosophy, as it would have been more relevant to HPB and AAB.
For instance, in English, one can do research on W.B. Yates'
connection with Blavatsky and her E.S., and write about how it
influenced his poetry.  In Philosophy, in a graduate or post
grad. program, one could compare Blavatsky to Schopenhauer--or
write about the influence of Eastern Philosophy on the West.  A
former student of mine is going back to school, majoring in
Religious studies at C.S.U. Santa Barbara.  He is doing this
because of his theosophical studies.  You might think about doing
something like this.  You could take one class at a time after
work.

     You don't need a Ph.D. to do what Tillett or Paul is doing--
not even a Masters.  But it is a tremendous commitment of time,
and to gain any academic recognition, you would have to learn
research and writing techniques.

> I have a related question about the way the great Lord Buddha
> went about 'begging' for food most of his life after having
> renounced the 'golden shackles' of his palace.  What
> principle does that illustrate?  Perhaps it is not valid
> today i.e. it is better to earn one's livelihood by
> providing a 'recognized' service rather than by begging in the
> present day world (for all disciple or initiates).

     Buddhism is not my field--just something I'm deeply interest
in.  My understanding is that the Buddha had to experience the
world as it is before he could find enlightenment.  The story is
that as a child, he was kept from having knowledge of poverty,
death, disease and old age.  He had to learn about these things.

     Being a beggar in Nepal, 2500 years ago is far more
acceptable than doing the same in puritanical America.  There is
an ingrained cultural belief in the United States that one must
work hard.  Beggars and people on welfare are looked down upon as
failures, or people trying to escape responsibility.  Our legal
system is set up to punish them--even our welfare system does so.
The attitude had its beginnings with the Puritans, who first
settled here.  They believed that if a person were wealthy, it
was evidence that God favored them, and it was a sign that they
would go to heaven.  Therefore everyone worked very hard to be
wealthy.

> Thanks a bunch for taking the time to write out this stuff.
> When is the next conference at which most of these luminaries
> may be present?

     We are thinking about 1995, in London.

> I see what you are saying, and feel that one worthwhile project
> may be to take portions of AAB teachings and show them
> how they relate to other religions or teaching.  This type of
> thing  has probably been done for HPB's teachings; she herself
> did a great part of this type of work.

     It hasn't been done for HPB yet.  Most people still
interpret HPB in terms of neo-theosophy, and/or through a
victorian paradigm.  HPB has to be rediscovered.  Maybe in the
next century.

> AAB (in the autobiography) and HPB, probably in TSD.  I'll
> have to look for these and point them out to you at some
> future time.  One thing that comes to my mind right away is the
> incident described in HPB's biography by Sylvia Cranston where
> HPB was asking about the value of 'Pi' (3.141.....); she
> wrote down what 'appeared before her eyes' but did not know
> what it meant.  Does it ring a bell? If not, I'll give a ref
> later.  More on this whole topic later...

     H.P.B. mentioned many times in correspondence and in
conversations that she was a dunce in arithmetic.  She made a
point of this in an unpublished letter to Ralston Skinner, the
author of THE SOURCE OF MEASURES.  In this letter, H.P.B.
expressed her admiration to Skinner for his research, and at the
same time told him that she had no talent for mathematics.  Still
that doesn't mean that she didn't understand what Skinner was
doing.  She discusses Skinner's book in TSD, and writes very
intelligently about its strong and weak points.

     You would have to give me the reference in Cranston's book,
so that I could know the context in order to comment on it.
However, HPB did copy material from the astral light.  She would
call up the material, then copy passages from it.  In ISIS
UNVEILED, there were instances where she would copy multiple
digit numbers backwards, probably confusing them, because she
would be seeing them as a mirror image in the astral light.  For
instance a reference to page 123, may become p. 321.  I can
explain to you Einstein's special and his general theories of
relativity, but I can't demonstrate it mathematically.  Even so,
my understanding of his theories are "correct,"  according to
physicists that I have talked to, who do understand it from a
mathematical angle.  I think HPB was talking about the same kind
of thing.  Remember, she claimed to have gone through special
training with her teachers.  The VOICE OF THE SILENCE is supposed
to be translations of material she memorized while undergoing
that training.

     She also had no knowledge of the Indian languages, but when
she traveled into an area, she would speak the language almost
right away, but forget it just as quickly once she left the area.
There is a lot more to this issue about what HPB knew and didn't
know than appears on the surface.

> The part of India where I come from (Punjab, North India),
>'vegan' life is almost impossible!  We have become very
> conscious of what we eat lately, and I am expected to be a
> vegan as per my doctor (MD)'s advice.  The closest that I have
> come to vegan food that somewhat resembles Indian cooking is
> the 'Macrobiotic' food.  Are you familiar with it?  There are
> several books of recipes for this, including some written by
> MD's. I can give you a reference or two, if you are interested.

     My father in law is trying to push Macrobiotics on us, and
sends us literature.  I remember it from the 60's when it first
started to gain popularity.  Personally, I don't agree with much
of the philosophy, but some of it is good.  My wife has a
macrobiotic advisor (hired by my father in law), who told her to
cut out all fruit from her diet.  She did for awhile.

     We have one of the countries largest concentrations of Sikhs
in our's and the immediately surrounding towns.  Needless to say,
most of them came from Punjab, so we are well familiar with
Punjab cuisine.  One young Sikh woman who is thinking the same
way as we, asked us to share Indian vegan cooking with her.

     By the way, we also have the worlds largest concentration of
Hmungs in our area also.  They were mountain people who lived
between Viet Nam and Cambodia, who were displaced during the Viet
Nam war.  The government wanted to relocate them by scattering
them around this country, but they refused and said that they
wanted to stay together.  They choose Turlock, because they could
farm here.  They are Buddhist and make beautiful tapestry.

     We also have a large Cambodian and a Portuguese population
here.

     Below is an interesting vegan recipe that we got through a
friend in Los Angeles.  It is hardly authentic Punjab cooking,
but more of an Americanized version of it.  For the butter, I
substitute a light canola oil, or margarine if I want the butter
flavor.  I've made it several times, and it has always been a big
hit.

NOORALI`S BLACK-EYED PEA CURRY
Mr. Noorali Velji

Serves 4 to 6

1 lb      canned black-eyed peas
3 Tbs     butter or vegetable oil
2 medium  onions, chopped
1 large   green pepper, diced
2 cloves  garlic, mashed
1/8 tsp   cayenne
1 - 2     fresh hot chili peppers, halved and seeded
1 tsp     turmeric powder
1 tsp     curry powder
1 tsp     ground coriander
2 fresh   tomatoes, diced
1 Tbs     heavy tomato paste
dash      salt or to taste
few sprigs   fresh coriander, chopped
2 Tbs     lemon juice or juice of 1 small lime

Heat butter and fry onions and green pepper until onions are
golden brown.
Add garlic, cayenne, hot chilies, salt, turmeric, curry powder,
ground coriander and continue to fry and stir for 2 minutes.
Add tomatoes and puree.  Cook another 5 minutes.
Add the drained black-eyed peas and fresh coriander and cook for
5 minutes.
Add lime or lemon juice and serve immediately.

This may be served with whole wheat pita bread or chapatis, rice,
and pickles and yogurt.

> Thanks for the invitation to meet with you at your house.  We'd
> love to have you (or indeed anyone with theosophical type of
> leanings) at our house.  What are your plans for vacation in
> the near future?  We'd be gone from June 20 to July 31 to India
> but other than that we'd love to host anyone who may be
> visiting the Dallas area on business or pleasure.

     There is a conference in Madras in June that we might be
going to.  If you are in the area, we may meet you then.  My
daughter will be visiting in August, but the date isn't set yet.

That's it for tonight

Jerry Hejka-Ekins