Theos-Talk Archives (January 1994 Message tl00126)

Hi Jerry H-E,

I got your package in the mail yesterday and needless to say
am very excited to go through the stuff that you have sent.
I loved JTH and will like to subscribe to it; should I send
in the subscription to the address provided in the issue
that you sent me (hope they have not moved in the meantime).
At the end of the booklet on Senzar was another ad for TH,
that one seems to come out of UK and is priced much higher. Is
that different from the journal that comes out of US, or have
the two been merged?
Are there other such journals that you know about?  Currently
I subscribe to
-Beacon (Lucis)
-Quest  (TSA)
-The Journal of Esoteric Psychology

I think I saw a reference to some journal on Transpersonal
Psychology; wonder if you have seen it. If anyone else
reading this message has any esoteric journal that he or she
recommends, I'd like to hear about it.

Now, back to the AAB/HPB comparison.

>      As to AAB having taught the S.D., this doesn't impress me
> one way or the other. I have seen people teach the S.D. who are
> utterly incompetent to do so, and the students, being less
> competent than the teacher, never knew the difference.

I have a different opinion. OK, not all teachers are going to
teach SD in the same way that you do as not all have the same
understanding of SD as you do, since all have their own respective
level of evolvement. Some of them could be higher in competence
than you or I, others could be lower. The fact that AAB had taught
SD and was very familiar with HPB writings by the time that she
started her work with the Tibetan to me means that she had at least
one essential qualification in her background, to start the work of
"rending the veil of Isis" (is this the right phrase?) still some
more, after HPB had made a beginning.

>      Regarding the quote above; I recall reading this very
> passage some years ago when I began my investigation of the
> Bailey writings. It left me very concerned because of the
> following:
>
> Her mention of "personal friends and pupils of H.P.B." as being
> her teachers, prompted me to ask, "what were their names?"  So I
> went through the book with a fine-tooth-comb noting the names of
> every person she mentions for a clue as to who she means. The
> names of H.P.B.'s personal pupils are all known, yet AAB never
> mentions knowing any of them. Also, with the exception of J.M.
> Pryse (whom some might call a "personal Pupil, but would have
> been of little help to her) who lived in Los Angeles, none of
> H.P.B.'s "personal Pupils" lived in the Los Angeles or San
> Francisco area at the times that she lived in those places. So I
> reinterpreted her statement to mean that she had been taught by
> former members of the E.S., during H.P.B.'s time. One could be
> on the other side of the world, never have met H.P.B., and still
> have been a member of the E.S. But having access to privately
> circulated material, is no assurance that an E.S. member has any
> understanding of what is in these instructions. Now, Mr. Prater
> was evidently a member of the E.S. during H.P.B.'s time, and
> according to AAB's testimony, he gave her his original E.S.
> instructions (which was a breach of his pledge), which were
> identical with those she had seen in the E.S.
>
>      Taken at face value, this is impossible. I have a copy of
> the E.S. instructions issued in 1891, under Besant and Judge
> shortly after H.P.B. died. I have carefully compared them with
> the originals and found that they were *already* significantly
> and extensively altered. The E.S. Instructions were eventually
> included in volume III of the S.D. in 1897, where even further
> alterations were made. I'm not a expert on the dates of all of
> the changes made in the E.S. instructions, but I know from
> personal investigation that the E.S. instructions used during
> AAB's time were already extensively altered. Therefore, my
> surmise here is that AAB may have made only a cursory comparison
> and wrongly concluded that they were "exactly" the same.

I think that you, because of your background, are able to say a
lot of things that I cannot. I have to assume that AAB in her
Autobiography is telling the truth, for one thing. For another,
I do not know how the personal pupils of HPB came to be so known
i.e. is it not possible that there were people that HPB taught
at various places who have not been 'captured' in the various
records?  I do not have the Unfinished Autobiography in front
of me but I remember seeing the names of two elderly persons
(ex-pupils of HPB) who taught AAB SD and other HPB material.
Also on pp. 190-191. there are the names of Mrs. Prater,  Miss
Sarah Jacobs and Dr. Jacob Bonggren (all old pupils of HPB
according to these two pages). Why do you not consider these three
persons as 'pupils' of HPB?

Also, I do not understand the distinction that you are making between
what Prater gave AAB vs what AAB already had in terms of the ES
materials. AAB if she wanted to 'plagiarise' or use ES materials
could have done so without the need of a copy of these from Prater.
Here is what I understand from her description in these two pages:
she seems to be implying that Prater somehow had been given ES material
and other private papers of HPB with a 'mandate' to do with them as
he pleased. He did not turn them over to WQJ but rather to AAB, as
he thought that AAB was a 'better successor' to HPB than WQJ.

>      Another possible reading of her statement is that AAB found
> in the E.S. archives a copy of HPB.'s original E.S. instructions,
> which she had an opportunity to compare with Mr. Prater's
> original E.S. instructions and found them both identical. This
> reading goes a little bit beyond the information she gives, and
> renders a very different impression. In this case, all she is
> saying is that even though she was never a member of H.P.B.'s
> original E.S., she still has a copy of those instructions because
> one of her students broke his pledge and gave her a copy. This
> interpretation is far less profound, but at least fits the facts.
> Though she had access to this material, this is no assurance that
> she understood it. Therefore a comparison is still in order.
>
>      A further concern I have about these statements, is why did
> she make them in the first place?  Her opening sentence seems to
> indicate her reasons: "I mention this for the benefit of the
> United Lodge of Theosophists and for those who claim that the
> true Theosophical lineage descends from HPB via WQJ."  In
> other words, she is addressing the old controversy of
> "successorship."  U.L.T. claims Judge to be H.P.B.'s successor--
> at least that is what she would have been told at Krotona. Of
> course, the Krotona E.S. believes Besant to be H.P.B.'s
> successor. Both Judge and Besant were indeed personal students
> of H.P.B., therefore, if AAB had teachers who were personal
> students of H.P.B., she would have the same bases to argue for a
> direct lineage to H.P.B. Unfortunately, she gives no names that
> could substantiate her claim.

I think that we need to look at successorship in a different way.
If you mean the immediate successors to carry on the work of TS/ES
there is no denying that persons like Olcott, Besant,WQJ or Parucker
succeeded HPB in the sense of 'carrying on the work' of the
basic organizations that she left behind. But in my opinion,
successorship in terms of continuity of hierarchial teaching (2nd
instalment) is what AAB is addressing here. This may appear
strange to you, but I know hundreds of fairly well-educated people
who feel that AAB was the successor to HPB. Why is she 'blowing her
horn'?  For several reasons, but I could argue that she was not
'blowing her horn at all' but rather giving out the information
for the benefit of her students (or readers of her book) so the
students can relate to her teaching better.

>      Regarding H.P.B.'s "wish" that the E.S. be called the
> "Arcane School," this also strikes me as being very curious. The
> U.L.T. calls their "E.S." the "Dzyan Esoteric School," which
> according to them, was the proper name used by H.P.B. according
> to written documents they have.

We may never have access to the papers but my attitude is to believe
others in general until they are proven wrong, and if AAB says she
had access to papers that said that HPB wanted ES named as AS, I am
prepared to accept that (my personal opinion is that she would not
lie about such a thing in any case).

>      As for AAB's inheritance of Journals, papers etc., I have
> copies of all this material in my own library and archives, plus
> a lot more. I even have some of the actual volumes that came
> from the Pacific Grove Lodge where she got her start. Further, I
> studied for eighteen years under a woman who studied under
> Blavatsky's only living blood relative (I knew him too), who in
> turn knew and studied under personal students of both Blavatsky
> and Judge. I can even name names (that are verifiable) if you
> want. In light of AAB's arguments, does my "lineage" and library
> give me some special occult status?

The special occult status that you have is known to the Masters and
to you. Yes, you definitely have special occult status as far as I am
concerned even though it is not the same as that of AAB. We all
assimilate knowledge from books in different ways and to different
degrees but certainly a time will come when you will become of
'direct use' to the Masters consciously (just like HPB was, if you
do not like to hear 'just like AAB was'!)

>      OK, now we have the testimony of AAB, FB, and DK that HPB
> made this prophecy, yet no one seems to have the reference.
> Personally, I don't care if she quotes the Mahachohan as having
> mentioned this prophecy. I want to know where H.P.B. stated it.

Can you give me (whenever you get a chance) the references
equivalent to those given in TCF for my version of SD corresponding
to those that appear in the beginning of TCF related to the three
fires?

>      I did this years ago, and almost every blank spot on the
> inside covers, fly leaves and title pages of my copy of THE
> UNFINISHED AUTOBIOGRAPHY are covered with notes concerning this
> and other topic areas. As I have repeated many times before in
> our dialogue, I have done a close reading of this book.
>
Ok, Ok, bear with me brother!

>
> > It is possible that the reference that you are looking for
> > is given in the 'secret' papers of HPB that were given to AAB
> > by Prater (do you have a reference to where HPB has said that
> > ES should be really named Arcane School?)
>
>      No I don't have this reference, but I have copies of the
> papers you are referring to. Perhaps we should add this mystery
> to the list of unverified claims and references. Presumably the
> AS archives (if they have one) has these papers and can supply
> the reference. If your theory is correct, they will also find the
> prophecy in the same paper.
>
I can include this in my query to Sarah.
>
>      Yes she did, and as she says in this quote, her attempt is
> "daring."  I think she succeeded quite well in "rendering in a
> European tongue the grand panorama...."   It wouldn't have made
> sense for her to try unless she had reason to believe that she
> could successfully to it. By the way, I never asked this
> quesion. I just made some statements and gave references in
> response to others you had made. This all came out of you
> responses to observations I made in reference to some material in
> TCF.
OK you never asked the question, I should have said, 'your comment'.
I write my messages many times without having your previous comments/
questions in front of me and so have to 'wing it' based on what I
remember of our previous discussion. I have two alternatives
typically, one is to make a thorough analysis which may take a long
time, the other is to not be 100% accurate in quoting you but at least
get some responses back to you. As it is you have raced way ahead of me
already. I think you will get far fewer responses from me if you
expect me to be 100% accurate in everything I quote from your
messages! But pl do keep on pointing out where I make a mistake.

> > I did not spend any time looking for this quote, and similar
> > ones I think I have seen elsewhere in HPB's other writings as
> > well.
>
>      Yes there are other quotes. And further, she often
> complains that ISIS UNVEILED was flawed because of her lack of
> mastery of English at that time. Boris de Zirkoff, who spent 50
> years compiling the COLLECTED WRITINGS, stated that in spite of
> her complaint, he found no evidence of any changes in her writing
> due to a better mastery of English. In other words, he found no
> evidence of the characteristic grammatical errors that writers
> make who are writing in a second language with which they are
> still getting familiar. This is pretty astounding if you think
> about it.

There is NO question in my mind that HPB was a high initiate and
has given us all a lot to be thankful for. I am only adding to it
that AAB (and indeed several others) have also contributed
immensely to the knowledge base available in public today.

>      Perhaps you misunderstood me. The section I cited (S.D. I:
> 310-25) is a general discussion on the keys, not an exposition of
> what they are. She keeps returning to the subject of the keys
> all through the S.D., but the section I cited for you is where
> she begins the discussion. This is typical of H.P.B.'s method,
> and does this with lots of other subjects too. I had documented
> specific references to the keys a month ago, and assumed that you
> already had that. To save you from digging into your "mailbox,"
> below is a copy that I cut and pasted from what I posted on Dec.
> 21 to Brenda:
>  (stuff deleted)

Thanks for reproducing this, I'll comment on it later in the week.

>      Well, I think this covers all of the issues you have raised,
> and I'm still waiting for the references to the others that are
> still hanging.

Yes, I need to get back to you on those issues as well later on.

Fraternally,

Arvind