Theos-Talk Archives (November 1999 Message tl00192)

> Bart: You have misundestood  motives and expectations.  I simply want
people
> to tell me how whatever they say is grounded.  If it is intuition,
faith in
> Blavatsky, experience, science, reason...whatever, I don't care.  Once
I know
> how it is gounded, I can then decide whether its something I want to
pursue.
> No problem learning a new vocabulary if I feel it is going to get me
> somewhere.  Some of my questions are just probes to see whether I
might be
> chasing doctrine or substance so I can be efficient in my pursuit.
> The gadfly, Randy

Its probably me, not Bart, yer talking to here ... (and let me say, you
most definately are the first person on the list that's confused the two
of *us* (-:)) ...

And all I can do is re-iterate the previous points ... Theosophy is
*not* something easily understood or even approached. Look at it the
same way you'd look at approaching quantum mechanics. If, without
learning the math, and without learning the field's vocabulary, you got
on a list of quantum physicists, and starting "probing" them to discover
whether there was something of substance, how *could* they answer you?
Are their theories and conclusions based on science? Certainly no one
has seen, or will *ever* see, a quark. Their theories of hyperspace ...
in themselves state that 6 dimensions are "curled up", that we'll never
even glimpse them. Is it based in reason? Yes ... but multiple other
perfectly reasonable theories are possible. Is it based on faith?
Intuition? The lines between these things are not firm at all. Their
conclusions often completely confound reason, and in fact are
significantly at odds with the worldview constructed out of sensory
evidence.

And if you did approach them with the attitude of trying to be a
"gadfly", telling them you wanted to see whether their thought was
"grounded" in anything prior to deciding whether its something you
wanted to pursue, well, they'd likely say "who the devil are *you*? what
do we care whether you pursue quantum physics or not? You want us to
take the time and energy to respond to you - as though it ought to be
*important* to us whether you pursue this field or not, as though
*you* - who doesn't even want to trouble himself to learn even the basic
vocabulary - somehow would be a great prize if we could only convince
you to study in this field?" ... hell, you'd need a few years of study
before you could even be an novice Theosophical *gadfly* ...

Your entire line of questioning, and underlying assumptions, are
straight out of the core of western linear thought - and I reiterate ...
if you persist in this, you'll never find answers you seek, and
Theosophy will just prove deeply unsatisfying - leave now and save
yourself a bunch of wasted time. The first people HPB and her adepts
worked with ran into the same wall - western attitudes used to
questioning in a particular way - a way that *removes* the questioner
from the equation and believes "evidence" is not dependent upon the
researcher - and they tried (for the most part unsuccessfully) to drill
it through people's heads that the inner qualities and abilities of the
person *seeking* is fully half of the equation. These are people that,
on the whole, spent decades (and within their worldview, actual
*lifetimes*) studying and sacrificing to earn the right to that inner
core of wisdom, and developing *themselves* to the point where they were
*capable* of understanding it and verifying it. In realtion to *that*,
the western attitude of people demanding proofs and evidence and
foundations - without wanting to do work - the attitude of westerners,
filled with the arrogance that that the western mindset so commonly
holds ... well, to them it simply looked like foolish children stamping
their feet, believing they should just have handed to them what they
hadn't earned, and that the people that underwent serious discipline and
sacrifices should just give it to them, on their terms, and within
parameters that were comfortable.

They naturally refused. Made no attempt to persuade. In their own frame
of reference, they possessed something of great, almost ultimate value
... they decided to offer, as a *gift*, out of a sense of *service*, a
little piece of that to the western world - to those that had something
inside of them that could at least *sense* (if not, at first,
understand) that value. They introduced a piece of the philosophy
underlying their body of wisdom. Hinted at the means by which people, if
they so chose, might undertake to refine *themselves*, to qualify
themselves to obtain a larger chunk of that wisdom. But they offered it
on *their* terms, as they saw fit, and didn't think any but a few would
really take to it anyway. Its why you'll never see Theosophists
proselytizing in airports ...

I understand your attitude, and know that it seems perfectly reasonable
and legitimate from within your frame of reference, but again empasize
that I believe you'll never get the answers you want, because they don't
*exist* in *that frame of reference*. From my experience, the people
that decide to pursue Theosophy do so for reason they almost can never,
at first, articulate - they simply sense something in it.

What I *do* know is this (and perhaps others on the list might agree) -
you *cannot* study Theosophy without being willing to deeply *alter*
yourself, and in fact the mere act of studying it for a couple of years
*initiates* alterations. It is not safe, it is not comfortable, and it
is anything *but* easily accessible. But again I'll emphasize that a
good number of our civilization's most creative and intelligent people
during the last century have found that the effort was more than repaid
by the buried value it contained. But decision to pursue it must be
*entirely* inwardly driven - and this list is full of people who *are*
inwardly driven, most having made a very personal choice to look in
depth at a body of knowledge they think might contain the answers they
seek, and many choosing to do the *work* they conceive as necessary to
obtain it. Because of this, probably *none* of them will try to convince
anyone else to make such a decision ... but if it is *made*, will be
more than happy to offer whatever insights they've gained from their own
pursuits. -JRC