Theos-Talk Archives (November 1999 Message tl00092)

In a message dated 11/7/99 2:29:13 PM Central Standard Time, dalval@nwc.net
writes:

> I appreciate the difference you indicate.
>
>  To make myself clearer (at least to myself) let me say that you
>  probably will never find all the evidence in objective artifacts
>  or relics that will enable you to confirm every least detail of
>  what HPB and Theosophy teach.  They are simply not available
>  physically.
>
I never said they were.  The Dzog chen is supposed to have been brought here
from another world/planet at a higher plane and its texts are said to be
fragments
of the fuller tradition of that higher world.  All I'm claiming is that HPB
does
give physical/historical indications of her "earthly" source or her source in
its
"earthly" aspects.  When these are compared to known and/or newly discovered
texts/traditions/locales, the "earthly" aspects of her source most closely
matches
that of the "earthly" aspects of Dzog chen.

> And as I look over the ever increasing numebr of commentaries and
> translations or texts as now emerge I can sense where many key
> statements have been altered by or changed by sectarians.

I don't know what you are referring to here.  In former Soviet Union/Caucasus,
we did not have much post-HPB.  Krishnamurti's conflict with the schemes
of AB, CWL, and Arundale seemed to be indicative of what went wrong with
the TS after HPB.  After that, we became somewhat isolated from outside
world, few in number (Stalin didn't like theosophists either), and maybe,
something like a time-capsule.  I don't mix my vodka and I don't mix my
theosophy with AB, CWL, or Arundale developments or any afterward
because it seemed that Krishnamurti, while a genuine product of ES training
(world-teacher, as he said, is a state anyone can reach, I'd say), was
not what the leaders of the TS really wanted with their little power
intrigues and need to pass out intiations like glorified fraternity
memberships.  While they warned people that the "expected
world teacher" would not be what people would expect, they found
themselves in the same boat.  They themselves rejected the very
thing they worked so hard for.  Again, I do not say Krishnamurti
was the world teacher.  To conceptualize him as such, whether
at first proclaiming him as such and then rejecting him as such,
was a total misconception of what the state of world teacher is.
So, in Caucasus, it appeared that this whole episode was one
that indicated what would happen to anyone who genuinely
progressed along the path.  He or she, while the acknowledged
goal of the ES of the TS to be supported by the leaders, would
in fact be what they most feared as threatening the cozy little
game of "lets play lodge politics."  So, when I got out of the
isolated world of Soviet Union, I saw in the current state of the
TS little to change the perception that Russian theosophists
had of the sorry state of the TS of AB, CWL, and Arundale,
as a result of the Krishnamurti fiasco, before they lost contact
with world theosophy.  And there is too much lead in the TS
to dump our philosopher stone time capsule into in the forlorn
hope to transmute it.  Anyway, if you think I'm one of the
"changers of texts" into alpha and beta versions and so on,
I'm not.

But that time capsule theosophy from Russia seems in
spirit to be at least kin to Dzog chen, and in the "earthly"
pointers left by HPB, theosophy seems to match the
the "earthly" aspects of Dzog chen.  And wouldn't it
be odd that the hidden Wisdom that is supposed to be
behind all traditions was only known and represented
by the TS.  I think so for two reasons.  First, if it did
exist apart from HPB's imagination as the esoteric
Wisdom of other traditions, then "earthly" embodiments
of it should be found apart from the TS.  Second, if
the Wisdom religion is eternal and cannot fail, then
given the current sorry state of the TS, the TS cannot
be the only "earthly" place where it is found for the
TS has failed.  I am one of those who believe that
that non-Buddhist, that Budhism that is neither the
exoteric southern Buddhism of Gautama nor wholly
the northern Buddhism of Tibet, and that esoteric
lamaism that HPB found, in its earthly manifestation,
is otherwise know as Dzog chen.  And, being born
in the same region, following up what is known of her
travels and contacts east, I found centers or practitioners
of Bon Dzog chen, some whose teachers remembered
that HPB had been there.

She tried to defend her status as a legitimite teacher
by giving clues to sources, by using the scholarship
of the day that supported her claims, and I don't see
why that can't be continued.

Grigor