Theos-Talk Archives (April 1999 Message tl00030)

I just received the following brief account of the conversation between K
and Ruben Feldman Gonzalez. I hope it would interest some.

mkr
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20

                          --=3D=3D=3DUntie the Ocean =3D=3D=3D--
---
Dr. Rub=E9n Feldman Gonz=E1lez=20
---

Untie the Ocean=20

(Intimate dialogues with Krishnamurti) Memorized after the encounter - not
recorded on audiotape=20

I met Krishnamurti on March the 23rd 1975 in San Francisco, California. I=
 have
already written about that. My last name is Feldman Gonzalez but=
 Krishnamurti
addressed me only as Dr. Gonzalez.=20

March 24, 1975 (Huntington Hotel - San Francisco, California)=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Sorry, I made you wait. I was doing some Hatha Yoga.=20

_Ruben:_ No problem. Thank you for receiving me again. I would like to=
 discuss
the fact that you are the instructor of the world (or the Second Coming).=20

_Krishnamurti:_ You worry about the irrelevant.=20

_Ruben:_ It is relevant for me, because if you are the Instructor of the
World, then I want to be an apostle.=20

_Krishnamurti:_ There are no more apostles, Dr. Gonzalez. It is of critical
urgency that human beings change radically. They have to detach themselves
from the content of mankind's consciousness, they have to live without
touching the stream of growing vulgarity and violence. Egocentric activity=
 has
to end, the desire for profit, power and prestige. One needs to learn to=
 live
psychologically alone, that is to be content without depending on anybody or
anything.=20

_Ruben:_ That they detach themselves from the content of mankind's
consciousness?... then, how does one live?=20

_Krishnamurti:_ You don't become comatose, you don't enter into a drug or
alcohol induced trance, you don't live in a state of hypnosis, nor asleep=
 even
while awake. You live in complete attention. Are you aware that observation=
 is
attention?=20

_Ruben:_ Fundamental action.=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Observation is action. To observe totally doesn't mean to be
negligent nor socially indifferent. If you observe totally, each one of your
actions changes in nature. You free yourself from the choking grip of
traditional memory and you also start to think sanely and freely. So there=
 is
total observation and new thought and action.=20

(We spent a long time in silence)=20

_Ruben:_ Are you greater than Jesus?=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Do you want me to say "yes"?=20

_Ruben:_ Tell me what do you think?=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Mankind is not the same. In the last 2000 years there have
been three wars every year in the world and there has been a consequent
degradation of human beings, the son of humanity can not be the same.=20

_Ruben:_ You are talking of the Son of Man (with capital letters) aren't=
 you?
You are talking of the Greek "uios tou antropon" (the son of man). Aren't
you?=20

_Krishnamurti:_ The son of humanity is today the son of a degraded mankind.
Then... what do you do?=20

_Ruben:_ I listen to Krishnamurti.=20

_Krishnamurti:_ For how long?=20

_Ruben:_ Until I understand and radical change occurs.=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Be a light to yourself. Stop procrastination. Throw away the
content of consciousness. There has to be pure consciousness, pure=
 awareness,
pure listening.=20

_Ruben:_ When I asked you whether I could speak publicly you said, "you
speak".=20

_Krishnamurti:_ You speak. "That" is not only for you.=20

_Ruben:_ Can you tell me more about talking to people about all this?=20

_Krishnamurti:_ You talk and expect no-thing.=20

*(long pause, in vital silence)* Krishnamurti had said "no-thing", he had=
 not
said "nothing".=20

_Krishnamurti:_ It's time for lunch Dr. Gonzalez.=20

March 25, 1975=20
(Hotel Huntington, San Francisco, California)=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Good morning Dr. Gonzalez.=20

_Ruben:_ Good morning.=20

_Krishnamurti:_ I guess you have some questions, right?=20

_Ruben:_ You told me two days ago that you'll never die in an aircraft, what
is it that makes you feel protected?=20

_Krishnamurti:_ That.=20

_Ruben:_ O.K. Please, tell me about That (Or the Other).=20

_Krishnamurti:_ You can see That in action, but you can't talk about it.=20

*(long pause, in complete silence)*=20

_Ruben:_ You already know that some of my friends disappeared in Argentina.
Sometimes I feel deep sorrow for Argentina and for the rest of the world.=
 How
come so much horror?=20

_Krishnamurti:_ You can be free of all conditioning and then you'll be free=
 of
sorrow. When you are not an Argentinian anymore you'll be able to do more=
 for
mankind and even for Argentina. I was born in India. I had an English
passport. When India declared its independence from England I asked for an
Indian passport. Since then I have great problems to get visas when I travel
around, but I'm not English nor Hindu. I'm a human being.=20

_Ruben:_ You are a very special human being. You are easy to love.=20

_Krishnamurti:_ I admit I'm different, but the transformation that has
occurred in me can occur in any other human being. And nobody needs
Krishnamurti or Dr. Ruben for that radical transformation, which is so
necessary, to occur.=20

_Ruben:_ Maybe not, but a serious dialogue helps.=20

_Krishnamurti:_ With no guru. Dialogue without gurus.=20

_Ruben:_ Could we say that you are being my guru without us wanting it and
that I'm being your guru without it being my purpose?=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Then there is a serious dialogue. You and I are seeing
together the same thing at the same time. The most repugnant thing is to
prostrate yourself to another human being and adore him or her.=20

*(long pause, in vibrant silence)*=20

_Ruben:_ Someone told me you sometimes even faint out of sheer physical
pain... What is that?=20

_Krishnamurti:_ I call it "the process" but I don't understand it nor want=
 to.
I leave all the explanations about "the process", healing, and clairvoyance=
 to
doctors like yourself (laughing).=20

_Ruben:_ I'd like you to tell me how to heal. I mean healing in its pristine
and complete sense.=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Again Dr. speaking *(long pause)* I prepared tea for you the
other day. You found it bitter and left it. I had to ask you to finish it.=
 You
still have predilections, Dr. Gonzalez.=20

_Ruben:_ So, to heal (with capital letters) you need to have no
predilections.=20

_Krishnamurti:_ No, no. It's necessary not to have predilections. Period. If
you're content for something you're not content.=20

*(long pause)*=20

_Ruben:_ Would you summarize the teaching in only one sentence?=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Attempt without effort to live with death in futureless
silence.=20

_Ruben:_ It sounds absurd.=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Some time ago, in 1972, I spent a full morning with That
without leaving my bed. I was completely quiet, before doing my Hatha yoga
(only physical yoga, just to keep a flexible body)... that was like a flame=
 in
the center of immensity. And the center of immensity was my brain. Do you
understand?=20

_Ruben:_ Yes.=20

*(long pause)*=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Then, what are you waiting for?=20

_Ruben:_ What? Are you by any chance saying that That is ready for me right
now?=20

_Krishnamurti:_ That's right. But you are too sad. What a waste! Then, what
are you waiting for?=20

_Ruben:_ I want to understand that sentence: "Die in silence without=
 future".
I think it would be better to say "attempt without effort to live in peace=
 in
futureless silence".=20

_Krishnamurti:_ No. Death is the end of all you are afraid to loose: your
attachments, your memory, your disappeared friends, your prestige as a
children's surgeon. All that is the content of your consciousness. Can you=
 get
rid of it right now, now that you're young and healthy and not wait for 50
years for it to crumble by itself? It's easy for me to die.=20

_Ruben:_ Saint Paul said: "I die every day".=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Paul said "I die every day" and Dr. Gonzalez repeats what=
 Paul
says and nothing at all happens.=20

_Ruben:_ You're more of a surgeon than I am.=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Dr. Gonzalez, your brain has been as it is for the last
million years. For how long will it be like that? Will you go to bed tonight
with that brain of yours as it always has been? Habit, sorrow, anger, etc.?=
=20

_Ruben:_ I wouldn't be here if I wanted to go to bed with this brain as it=
 is.
Nevertheless, I know I shouldn't accept what you say just blindly. I have to
experience it. Would you be able to facilitate the experience of that which
may transform my brain and my life?=20

_Krishnamurti:_ If I was so stupid as to facilitate it, then all I say would
become a theory or a technique, like so many others. You have to do it
yourself, Dr. Gonzalez. Climb to the summit and look, or do you prefer to go
to bed and beg me to describe it to you? Would you be satisfied with my
description? Then you have no substance, then you are a second- hand human
being.=20

*(pause)*=20

_Ruben:_ How does mediocrity end?=20

_Krishnamurti:_ As you get rid of the contents of human consciousness, will
you get rid of all word?=20

_Ruben:_ Without saying "Krishnamurti is talking to me".=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Or he who listens is a "respectable Dr." You simply listen
totally in pure silence.=20

_Ruben:_ Nevertheless, even with no words, I'll be able to talk meaningfully
from deep silence.=20

_Krishnamurti:_ For the first time, quite sir. The word God is not God.=20

_Ruben:_ Will it help to stop sex with my wife? (*)=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Dr. Gonzalez, if you love, you love your wife, then you do
what you will and there is beauty in what you do. Don't worry about sex, do=
 it
or don't. Now, let's be silent for a while because Mr. and Mrs. Lillifelt=
 will
be here soon. We will have to talk, because you know well Dr. Gonzalez, that=
 I
will not live forever. Perhaps ten years more and the chap will be gone.=20
-=3DComments =3D-

(*) The relationship with my wife ended three years later when she left our
house, which I immediately got rid of. Ever since then I live in the desert
without securing my future.=20

The meeting followed the dialogue but I have already written about it.=20

Krishnamurti died almost exactly ten years later.=20