Theos-Talk Archives (July 1996 Message tl00667)

Continuing the discussion that Toldoth, and also HPB, when referring to Jesus
as living one century before Pilate, I argued the pauline epistle 1Tm. I
already mentioned that this epistles was recogniced by the first canons of
the church, and the discussion was around other books such as Revelations and
epistle of James, but never around 1 Timoty. I also refered to Paulicians
that respect all paulines epistles.

Even herectics as Marcion include the epistles of Paul as Holy Writ. 
Marcion produced his own canon without OT and using only a heavily edited 
Luke and some pauline epistles. HPB at book III, chapter III (start 116, 
end 145) page 143 says that Marcion refused ALL gospels, what is wrong....
HPB some lines before refered to Tertulian (Adv Marcion) and Epiphanius 
(Panarion) that accused Marcion to adulter Luke, so Marcion recogniced a 
Luke edition of gospel...What pauline epistles Marcion did recognice?? 
HPB didn't say. In another posting I refers to some comments of Dr. 
Lardner about Marcion canon.

Probably Marcion only recogniced Luke, because he could not refuse a 
gospel that was considered as the gospel of Paul. Even 2Tm4:11 and
Colossians 4:14 refers to Luke, as Paul`s disciple.
Eusebius at Ecclesiastic History BOOK V, CHAPTER VIII. 
1 Since, in the beginning of this work, [1] we promised to give, when
needful, the words of the ancient presbyters and writers of i the
Church, in which they have declared those traditions which came down to
them concerning the canonical books, and since Irenaeus was one h of
them, we will now give his words and, first, what he says of the sacred
Gospels: [2] "Matthew published his Gospel among the Hebrews in their
own language, [3] while Peter and Paul were preaching and founding the
church in Rome.  [4] After their departure 3 Mark, the disciple and
interpreter of Peter, also transmitted to us in writing those things
which Peter had preached; [5] and Luke, the attendant of Paul, recorded
in a book the Gospel which Paul had declared.  

Marcion recogniced Luke, and Luke referred to Pilate 3:1, 23:1 and
Herode the great 1:5 and his son Herod 23:7. So, Marcion rejects Toldoth
that referred to Jesus as living one century before.

Rene Nelli, Les cathares, Paris, 1972 page 93 talk about the doctrines
of an italian called Jean de Lugio (1240) that, in accordance with Nelli,
follow the doctrines preached by occitanic cathars. The cathars also
preached a dualistic doctrine (as Marcion and Paulicians) and in his
[book of two principles] Lugio refers to several pauline epistles such
as Hebrews 6,18 and II Timoty 2,13 (omnipotence of God, the true god),
Colossians 1,12-13 and 2,13-15 (the destruction of powerful evil),
Efesians 6,10-13 (about evil principle). In all these passages, Lugio
refers to Paul as the real author of these epistles, the same Paul
considered by cathars as an [initiated], a [perfect] (Filipenses 3,15)
(Nelli page 66).

Abrantes