Theos-Talk Archives (April 1996 Message tl01050)

Daniel Caldwell writes:

>I have been closely reading your series of comments and replies
>to each other.  Yes, I agree that as of now, this subject is a
>"dead horse".  But going through the posts I found that one of
>you would say, HPB says this or CWL taught that but neither one
>of you quoted the source.  Therefore, it is hard for the other
>participant as well as the rest of us to know exactly what
>specific source you were referring to.  It may have been more
>informative if both of you would have quoted  extracts from HPB
>or CWL to ILLUSTRATE  your points.  Then the other  participant
>and the rest of Theos-l would have seen what you, in fact, were
>talking about.  I realize that such a process might have been
>laborious.....

JHE
      Daniel, I also agree that the dialogue is a "dead horse,"
but I disagree that quoting HPB and CWL would have saved it.
Rather, the dialogue may have had an earlier death.  Since Jerry
S and I both claim to be very familiar with both CWL's and HPB's
teachings, and have read the same books, I would think that a
dialogue without "illustrations" should have been easily
accomplished without one having difficulty following the other.
On my part, I had no problem identifying Jerry S's descriptions
of CWL's teachings, and had a pretty good idea which book he had
in the back of his mind.  In the one case where Jerry S had also
drawn from HPB's teachings to support his arguments, I also had
no problem recognizing that material either.
      On Jerry S's part, however, he mentioned at least twice that
he was unable to follow my rationale.  But I question whether my
quoting HPB would have helped him understand it.  If Jerry's
problem had been that he did not recognize the information I was
drawing from, all he had to do was ask: "where is your support
for that statement?"  In such a case, I would have gladly
provided the necessary quotes.  So, I think we might have to look
elsewhere for Jerry's difficulty in following me.
      As for you and anyone else who bothered to read these posts
in the first place, I think my not quoting HPB in every other
sentence was an act of kindness to all of you.  If I had done so,
my posts would have turned into laborious 12 page megillahs that
nobody except perhaps martyrs like you would want to plow
through.  If there was another reader who did not find something
clear, I would have been happy to make a clarification if asked.
No doubt Jerry S would have done the same.  If you were confused,
you could have asked for a clarification too.  But my guess is
that you are much too familiar with this material to have really
been lost.
      On the other hand, if Jerry S were to have stated up front
that he was not familiar with CWL's and or HPB's writings on the
subject, the format of the discussion would have been entirely
different and I would have taken the time to give references.
But even in this discussion, I recall making it very plain that
for CWL, I was using his model as published in ~Man Visible and
Invisible.~  If the discussion had continued, and specific areas
of disagreement became evident, I would have been obliged to
narrow in on specific references.  In the case of my last post, I
had already anticipated that Jerry would turn the discussion to
the function of the "Astral Body" in life and in the after death
states, so I had already taken the time to prepare a comparison
between HPB's description in the ~Key~ and CWL's ~To Those Who
Mourn.~  Jerry's final post proved that my anticipation was
correct, but I failed to predict that he would cut off the
dialogue.  So my preparation turned out to be a waste of time
after all.
      Continuing your point about using quotes, my recent post to
Kim Poulsen on "bodies" and "tattwas" serves as an illustration
of how I try to format the discussion based upon the needs of the
reader.  When we began the discussion, Kim was up front that he
had no CWL literature, and was basing his discussion on an ES
Instruction in vol. 12 of the B:CW.  Therefore in my response, I
made very short quotes and cited page numbers from that text.
When I had to go outside of the material under discussion, I
think I also cited those sources.  But there was no sense in
citing references to CWL when he didn't have the texts to look
them up.

DC
>Jerry HE said in one of his posts that he believed Jerry S.
>misunderstood the planes/principles as given by HPB.  I believe
>Eldon in previous posts had said something to that effect.
>Unfortunately, this has never been gone over in enough detail to
>resolve the problem. * Details are might important not only in
>historical studies but even in discussing philosophical/
>metaphysical subjects.*  Yet most people want to talk only  in
>vague, generalized terms........even when it comes to Theosophy.

JHE
      The aim in my dialogue with Jerry had nothing to do with his
alleged understanding or alleged lack of it.  It was to simply
communicate to him the differences between HPB's and CWL's
schemas and to show that they are inconsistent.  I obviously
failed to do so.  Whether the problem lies with my lack of
clarity or Jerry's ability or willingness to understand my
"rationale," or in an unrecognized problem is another question.
      As for "vague, generalized terms," may I point out to you
that I posted in my own words some rather precise definitions of
planes; principles; bodies; vehicles etc. according to HPB and
CWL in an early post.  Jerry S did not question or challenge
these definitions, so I continued upon the bases of them.  If he
had questioned or challenged these definitions, I would have been
obliged to pull together the necessary quotes, even at the risk
of losing reader interest.  So I submit that the dialogue did not
break down because of vagueness and generalities--at least not on
my part.

DC
>Would the two of you be willing to start over again??!!
>Probably not  :(
>
>Daniel Caldwell

      I think Jerry S has made his intentions clear, and I don't
blame him.  If I could not follow a discussion, I might also be
reluctant to continue.  However, if someone on this board wishes
to continue this discussion concerning differences between HPB
and CWL, I would be more than happy to start again.

JHE
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   |Jerry Hejka-Ekins,                      |
      |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT                |
         |Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu   |
            |and CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org       |
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