Theos-Talk Archives (April 1996 Message tl00992)

JHE
>>  For HPB, bodies are independent entities that
>>come into existence either at the death of the physical body,
>>or through an extraordinary act of will.

JS
>This is certainly true for the kama-rupa, but not so
>for all bodies--the mayavi-rupa being used during life by those
>who know how.

JHE
      Yes--as I wrote above--"through an extraordinary act of
will."

JHE
>>  "Mental body" would
>>also be an incorrect equivalent of "manas," because the they do
>>not have independent existences as entities.

JS
>You have lost me here.  No bodies, however we
>want to define them, have "independent existences."

JHE
      You lost me too.  You already admitted in your first comment
above that the kama rupa is an independent entity that comes into
[independent] existence after the death of the physical body.

JS
>I don't
>think that anyone taught that.  Manas simply means mind.
>We don't normally think of our mind as having or being a "body"
>as such, but that is because we all tend to equate consciousness
>with mind.

JHE
      For HPB, you are right--she didn't teach that about manas.
But look again at diagram II in CWL's ~Man Visible and
Invisible.~  His "Mental Body" is "rupic" in its lower sub-
principles, and "arupic" in it higher sub-principles.  CWL's
mental body indeed has a "`body' as such."

JS
>When consciousness is seen as something
>other than mind, then mind can be considered a "body" or
>vehicle for it when it focuses on the third cosmic plane.

JHE
      A vehicle (as I think I explained earlier), according to
HPB, is not necessarily a body.   She makes a distinction between
a vehicle (vahan) and a body (upadhi).

JS
>Now, all of this stuff is flakey.  G de P, for example,
>on pages 442-443 describes the mayavi-rupa (one of our
>bodies acknowleged by HPB) as "the body of thought
>and feeling" which makes it a combination of astral
>and mental.

JHE
      What do you find "flakey" about this statement?

JS
>Many occultists and magicians (ok, Alexis,
>and Shamans) experience only a single Body of Light.
>These are all models or terminology that we give to our
>experiences, and clearly demonstrate the subjectivity
>of such experiences.

JHE
      You and Alexis know more about that than I do about
magicians' terminology.  I'm just a poor student of theosophy.

JHE
>>  Further, HPB's
>>bodies each have their own cycle of existence.  They never
>>exist beyond a single cycle of incarnation and disincarnation
>>(with the exception of the Causal Body, which exists for a
>>manvantara).

JS
>     Agreed, but where does this differ from anything CWL
>taught?


JHE
      Only in the primary point I was trying to make: I believe
that HPB's "Principles" are more akin to CWL's "bodies" than
CWL's "bodies" to HPB's "bodies."  HPB's "bodies," are composed
of two are more principles.  Those principles are derived from
the elements (in the platonic sense).  CWL's "bodies" are, as you
say, made up of the tattwas.  CWL's "bodies" come together to
form a living human being.  HPB's "bodies"  have no objective
existence until either the physical body dies, or the bodies are
created through an extraordinary act of will (by mediums, adepts
or "magicians" if you will).


JHE
      My server (toto) at the unversity crashed for about a week.
As a result,  I lost the rest of your post before I was able to
finish responding to it.  However, as I recall, you had raised a
final point that HPB creates confusion by changing her
terminology.  Actually, my experience is that her terminology and
the meanings are quite consistent, but her explanations became
more detailed as she revised the subject.  The enumeration and
order of her seven principles also changed, but I found that by
following her explanations in order for that earliest to the
latest, with an awareness of her interaction with A.P. Sinnett
and Subba Row, it is very evident that her changes were made to
further clarify obscure points, or to correct misunderstandings
that were arising from 1880 to 1890.

      I hope this helps.

JHE

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   |Jerry Hejka-Ekins,                      |
      |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT                |
         |Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu   |
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