Theos-Talk Archives (December 1995 Message tl00547)

Chuck Cosimano wrote "Musings of a Theosophical Heretic" some weeks back and
replies were posted by Liesel and Jerry H-E. Chuck has yet to post his
promised opinions but this is my two cent's worth:

I. Was the Buddha enlightened or the product of good press?
JH-E: said the answer did not matter to him and the more relevant question
was whether or not the ethics of Buddha made life better for His followers
and the world in general.

JLM: JH-E has a point but it is not the main one. Chuck's question of the
Buddha is a paraphrase of the fundamentalist Christian's "Trilemma": was
Jesus/ Christ a Liar Lunatic or Lord? Theosophy holds a special place for
Those who transcend the limitations of being "merely human" and it does
take something away if we dismiss that accomplishment. In the case of the
Buddha the story is that after His enlightenment the five ascetics who had
previously abandoned Him came and asked What are You? Not *Who* are You
but *What* are You? And the Buddha answered "I am Awake." If the
enlightenment of the Buddha is *real* then it has definite implications for
us as seekers on the Path.

II. Is karma real or a tool for social control?
LFD: said that it did not really matter but knowledge of the laws of karma
was useful as a framework in accomplishing goals paraphrasing a bit.
JH-E: more or less agreed with LFD's statements and added two anecdotes
about "neotheosophists" of his acquaintance who used karma as a rationale
for hurting others with the implication of "do it our way and you won't get
hurt next time" and also those who use karma as an excuse for inaction or
irresponsibility.

JLM: I think knowledge of the laws of karma falls into the general category
of "the more we know about the way things work the less energy we waste in
trying to fight Purpose." Or "butting heads" as Liesel puts it. JH-E's
second point is well made and that is the classic criticism of the East:
belief in karma stunts growth because of the attending attitude of "it's all
going to happen anyway so why should I act now?" But his first point is a
misstatement: "stabbing someone in the back" and then claiming "it was their
karma that put the knife there" is a violation of free will. The work
"karma" is nearly interchangeable with the phrase "cause and effect" and
the latter may be easier for Western minds to accept in all its
implications. Which is to say we can forge new chains everyday -- such as
initiating a new causal relationship by say stabbing someone in the back
without reason. note: it is my point that Jerry's acquaintance has
misunderstood the idea of karma not Jerry -- though I wish he had used
"nontheosophist" rather than neotheosophist in his example.

III. Did the Masters tell the truth in Their letters?
JLM: for me the writings of "the Masters" form part of a working
hypothesis. Jerry said more or less the same question: did anyone else get
the impression that JHE and Liesel had changed places in answering this
point? :

IV: RE: Theosophy as a reflection of the culture of its founders:
JLM: JH-E made an interesting observation regarding the spread of theosophy
as a function of Indo-European influence. Question for Jerry: Do you
separate the influence then of Buddhism and its promotion from Theosophy?
The nineteenth and twentieth century revival of Asian Buddhism does not fit
your pattern for example which excludes Oriental countries.

V. Does anyone really care about the rounds and chains and why should they?
JLM: Jerry does Liesel doesn't. I vote with Liesel. I've seen whole
groups of people put to sleep listening to explanations of globes and such.
Jerry who probably does a better job of explaining these things than I have
witnessed makes a point about why he teaches them but it seems to me that
many subjects could accomplish his stated goal of honing "perceptive skills
of non-linear thinking." Maybe this is just a personal preference or a
reaction to some *really bad* lectures and charts that pushed by
tolerance/patience/politeness to the limit. Having said that I think it is
important to differentiate between CYCLES and all that other stuff.

So Chuck -- you started this thread. Holidays busy schedules and all
aside when are you going to post your opinions?

Jim