Theos-Talk Archives (September 1995 Message tl00621)

Daniel:

It's interesting to see how the degree of contrast
between our different beliefs, when we both talking
about the same divinity behind all of life.

>It is totally unacceptable to think that we can interpret
>[the Bible] to suit our own thinking.

That is how you have been taught. We might think differently.
The intent is not to allow everyone to make up any belief
that they want, but so that they can take the basic truths
contained in a religous book and make those truths a living
part of their lives. Until the truths are in *your words*,
and are *your ideas,* freshly thought up as you think about
a subject, you are parroting, without understanding, the
dead words of another. The spirit requires an awakened
mind to speak for it, not a "tape recorder."

>I think backwards...so
>while we drive on the highway at 55 we are both
>interpreting just fine...but when I see a sign...
>Speed Limit 15mph...I rev my engine to a cool 51.
>I told the policeman I thought it said 51.

We can delude ourselves when studying spiritual teachings.
We can cling to cherished beliefs and allow them to keep
us from freely thinking about things, from coming to them
with an open mind. When we force things to be a certain
way because of our prior beliefs, we are saying the sign
is "35" (or whatever we've been taught), without even
opening our eyes and reading what it says. We already know
how to interpret the sign, and so what it actually says
is of no consequence.

>JESUS answered "Take heed that no one deceives you"

This also refers to ourselves. We have to beware of
self-deception.

>So that We would not be deceived he makes
>several declarations so that we will have a solid
>backdrop for what the future holds.

There may be several statements of philosophy clothed in
"the words of Jesus," by the man or men that wrote that
book of the Bible.

>That regardless of our suit...the truth will remain.

True, and regardless of our religious beliefs, and regardless
of what our church teaches us.

>For many will come in My name, saying "I am the Christ
>and will deceive many"

Yes, there are many rival claims to the path to spiritual
truth. Some are true, others are misguided. None are sponsored
by the Christian devil, which many people consider to be
yet another myth to scare people into obedience to their
particular religious authorities.

>Has this happened? Has anyone declared that they can
>become or are Christ?

Few are so vain. But many claim to be or represent an
exclusive approach to God or the spiritual or to salvation.
They don't claim to be divinity itself, but to be its
exclusive representative.

>Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you
>and you will be hated by all nations for MY name's sake.

This sounds lacking in compassion, a quality that is always
a part of the divinity behind things. But every body of
religious teachings has inconsistencies.

>And the gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all
>the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the
>end will come.

The real teaching of the kingdom of God should sound, I'd
say, something like "and the kingdom of God was already here
on earth, but they had not eyes to see it."

>The internet, satellite communication, translators...
>"abomination of desolation"

It is precisely because of the free access to information
that governments and political systems that rely on thought
control are failing. The governments can no longer sequester
their population from news, other ideas, and an open discussion
of the truth. I suspect that this is happening in the area
of religion as well.

>The false-prophet & anti-christ will declare in the,
>as of this moment unbuilt temple "That he is to be
>worshipped"

Worship is always of the divinity that is in and behind all
things. It doesn't matter what saint we may worship, or what
holy words we contemplate. We're gazing upon "the face of God"
behind all of them. This is the *same divinity* regardless of
outer form.

>He will bring peace to the World, he
>will be healed from wounds that caused him to lose
>his right arm and his right eye.

Peace comes from love, respect, and tolerance of all views,
while working for the betterment of all. No group has exclusive
claim to working for peace, and no group is without fault.

>For then there will be a great tribulation, such as
>has not been since the beginning of the world...

There do come times when the world is shaken up, and a new
spiritual order is established. In Hindusim this is described
as Krishna coming to restore the spiritual order of things in
dark times. There is the idea that an Avatara is sent out as
a spiritual lightbringer. Jesus was one such Avatara. He is
not the last. Christianity is not the only religion with such
a start, and future Avataras won't especially limit their work
through support of modern Christian churches.

>There will those on this list that will become
>members of the elect and will endure to the
>end, your choice to follow Jesus will not come
>until after you recognize that those that
>believed on the Lord Jesus are now suddenly gone.

Being "saved" comes when we rise about our mortal selves,
and are "born again" in the spirit. The Sanskrit word for
this is "dwija," twice-born. The idea is not new to
Christianity, and the spiritual practice is as old as the
world.

>Hopefully along with the other prophetic
>declarations such as the Mark, the re-building
>of the temple you will finally lay your own
>spirituality on the cross.

We would not agree with your prediction regarding the
future events of the world, as taught you in your particular
branch of Christianity. The theosophical scheme has a near-endless
series of human lifetimes before us, an almost unending opportunity
to grow and learn and give expression to the holy and sacred in
outer life. We also have heaven, too, and that is experienced
*between lifetimes*. Our future does not seem as dark as the
world that you have been taught to expect.

>Heaven and Earth will pass away, but MY words will by no means pass away.

Yes. All things are mortal will perish in due time. But with each
end is a new beginning. Life renews itself, and that includes us too.
The highest spiritual truths, though, are eternal in the sense that
they are not subject to corruption, and remain true throughout the
life of the universe itself.

>It is what it is. No symbolism whatsoever.

We can take any idea and interpret it literally, or look for deeper
meanings. Sometimes it takes a key or special training and understanding
to see behind the apparent literal meaning to a great spiritual truth.

>But as the days of Noah were, so also
>will the coming of the Son of Man be.
>And did not know until the flood came...

True, there are occasional diasters when whole societies are destroyed.
This is never, though, a final end, but only the making of room for a
new order to be established, a new society to take root in place of the
old. This has happened countless times in the past and will continue
billions of years into the future.

>Interestingly enough Noah was building
>the Ark for 100 yrs in a place where no
>rain had ever rained. There was not a large
>body of water near either. Every carved
>piece of wood SCREAMS of the eventual
>judgement of God.

By simply being alive, we are subject to risks and dangers. Sometimes
we cannot avoid them, and are harmed or killed. But we are reborn in
due time and continue where we left off. We cannot life our lives in
fear of our mortality -- such fear clouds the mind and heart and
distracts us from our primary duty of being agents of beauty and truth
in the world, mouthpieces for the divine.

>Two men will be working in the field
>(or posting on the internet) : one will
>be left the other taken.

Yes, that's karma. Life is not random, by happenstance. There is meaning
behind the apparently chance events that happen to us.

>You stay...I go.

We each continue in life, according to our respective merits and
responsibilities. Perhaps you will spend a large period of time in
your after-life *picturing* in your spiritual vision the ideas and
images of the Christian heaven that you've been taught and spent
your lifetime thinking about. And then, if it should happen, it
would be ironic if you are reborn as a devout Muslem!

>there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This sounds like when we might hope that someone speeding on the
freeway faster than we are will get pulled over and ticketed. It
is not a compassionate, loving thought. We can do better than that.

>If you will confess with your mouth that
>Jesus Christ is Lord and believe with your
>heart that God rose Him from the dead
>YOU will be saved.

If you approach a path to the spiritual with utter conviction and
sincerity, and grasp hold of the inner life as though your very life
depended upon it, you will be saved. That is, you will have opened
a living link to the divine within your heart. And then, for each of
us, we have the responsiblity to give expression to it in the world,
or we will lose it and our natures corrupted again.

What is important is that "grasping hold of," and it comes with the
same feeling as a man, with head held under water, wants the air
again to breathe. It is this action that *we take*, and not the
mental image -- be it Jesus or Krishna or Kwan Yin -- that we
use as a mask for describing the experience.

You are telling us of the value of this experience. Many of us
may already be aware of this experience. It's just that we give
it different masks, we call it by different names, names foreign
to your ears. In order for an open sense of brotherhood to exist
in the world, both us and everyone else, including us, need to
accept each other without regard for the other's belifs. It's
an admirable goal that hopefully we can all oneday work towards.

-- Eldon