Theos-Talk Archives (August 1995 Message tl00185)

Liesel:

Leadbeater has written a great deal about being conscious on
the astral plane, so please include him in with HPB and GdP. He
even talks about practicing to be an invisible helper,
consciously while you're asleep, & on the astral.

Martin:
I've read some books from Leadbeater's pen, but I didn't study
much of his or Besant's books. If you can provide some pertinent
quotes or paraphrases - i'm always interested in ideas and practice
(if it looks safe to do them)

Liesel:
Martin, I have a sneaking suspicion that my book on chaos
theory has something that explains Laya Centers. When I get a
chance, I'll go searching, & if I find an answer I'll write
you.

Martin:
Thanks Liesel, that is greatly appreciated. That would be a great
topic for this list too, I guess.

Jerry:
However, when we move the information obtained at the
quantum level up to our macroscopic level, then relativity
and chance come into play.

Martin:
Like randomly poking into a pot of soup I guess..

Martin: < As I understand theosophy only two types of humans
can do this: 1.sorcerors and 2.Mahatmas, etc.>

Jerry:
Gee, I hope not. I know a lot of people who have lucid
dreams, and/or who can control their dreams, and thus are
self-conscious on the astral plane. None are sorcerors, and
I don't think any are Mahatmas either.

Martin:
I understand now what the confusion about this is: it arose from the term
'astral' that you mentioned in saying that HPB stood quite alone on
this subject (of the spheres of cause vs. effect).
What I remember is this: both GdP and HPB talk about Devachan as
a sphere of effects, and GdP adds that Devachan also is, in a certain
sense, a sphere of effect where the rebuilding of character is involved.
(This last part is my paraphrase from memory).
Devachan is not the astral world or sphere, but a state of consciousness
that is 'on the mental plane'.
The kama-loka sphere is also talked about as a sphere of effects, both
by GdP and HPB, and this sphere is talked about as being a part of
the 'astral' world or sphere. GdP talks about deceased people not being
able to be fully conscious on this plane, at least not for a long time
and probably only partial. But you are talking about _living_ people,
that's the difference.
So, HPB talks about the sphere of effects in connection with a deceased
human being. While alive, things are very different, because we create
karma in the earthy spheres (including the astral realms), but when we
die, we are generally not any longer able to do so (exceptions excluded)

To elaborate on this: I think that it is all
a matter of degree. Lucid dreaming does not imply complete mastery
of the astral illusions, does it? Because a complete and permanent
mastery of the senses on the astral plane implies an advanced
state of consciousness, I guess, on the mental-spiritual plane.
At least, this is what I gather from WQ Judge, and my own experience
leads me to think that a certain clearness of mind is indeed a necessary
prerequisite for being 'lucid', being aware of the mind following
the astral patterns during sleep.

Jerry:
I have had dreams where I begin where I left off in a former dream,
and so my sense of the past is what happened to me in that former
dream. Is this past karma acting on the astral plane?

Martin:
You mean from a former life? I think it is just the memory or impression
from that former dream. That's all. Let me add that the astral tendencies
or propensities can and do act more freely during our dreams than
during our waking hours. So, the statement that we do create astral
karma during our dreams seems very likely to me, although we may
remain ignorant of that fact in our brain-consciousness.

Jerry:

Chaos (the Hindu Siva and the Egyptian Set) is the polar
opposite of order. <..>
Order, by itself, sets permanent patterns to all things,
leaving no room to grow. Order itself results in
predestination. Chaos allows for free will.
.
He <David Ruelle> sees the problem of free
will as one which probably cannot be answered. You can
assume free will as an inherent spiritual attribute and go
from there, or you can assume chaos allows for choices and
take that route. But whichever way you go depends upon your
initial assumptions.

Martin:
Both your statements and Ruelle's imply a dichotomy between
order and chaos and Ruelle doesn't solve the problem of free
will in this connection.
It reminds me of the duality of spirit-matter. But there seems
to be a deeper level behind this: as matter is crystalized spirit
(and spirit 'rarified' matter) there seems to be missing the notion
of the relatedness of chaos and causality. Siva, Brahma and Vishnu
are in some sense 'three in one', three aspects of the One Life.
Polar opposites convert into each other, like life and death,
sleep and being awake. Crystallized order becomes an impediment
to the evolutionary stream of life, it resists too much, causes
unbalancies (chaos) and must be transformed or perish. So, the bonds between
the elements constituting this order is broken and a new order arises.
A related idea is that free will exists as a consequence of the tension
or friction between systems, eg. between humans, between humans and nature,
between atoms, and between cosmic bodies. Free will is thus seen
necessary to establish new equilibria between systems, be it along
evolutionary lines [in a theosophical sense, spiritual] or anti-evolutionary
[the 'lefthand side']
Conversion of states seems to be a key factor here. The cycles of life
itself cause friction between each other.These cycles can reinforce
each other, or obliterate each other (like lightwaves) and everything
in between. Nature is not perfect-cannot be perfect.

Jerry:
HPB already gave us a theory of Laya centers,
so I don't know what you mean here. A Laya center is simply
a tunnel or connecting pathway from any one cosmic plane to
an adjacent plane. We go through one every time we nap.

Martin:
HPB's theory is only a general sketch on the subject.
I have a more mathematical theory in mind. In BCW XIII there's
a picture of a chart of harmonic evolutions by Keely. He posits
the existence of seven distinct orders with three subdivisions
between the molecular and 'inter-etheric' realms.
These evolutions seem to imply harmonic waves (depicted by
musical notes on the chart) as a result of traversing laya-centers.
But that is my interpretation, no further clarification is offered
in the text. Going through laya-centers implies a transfer of energy
and an (inter)change of consciousness as I see it. We do it each night
(unconsciously), refreshing the 'batteries'. A (mathematical) theory
about such transfers and changing of states would be of interest,
both for physics (black holes?; perpetuum mobile (yes!)) and for
theosophy (understanding the flow of life/light/consciousness,
manifesting through the seven or more planes, loka's-tala's interfacing,
and so on).

Martin