Theos-Talk Archives (June 1995 Message tl00059)

In message <JF877c1w165w@actrix.co.at> theos-l@vnet.net writes:

> Thank you for the interesting set of ideas against reincarnation.
> I shall take great pleasure in providing alternative views.
>
> > Reason One: If the reincarnation process has been going on since
> > (say) Lemurian times or even earlier _and_ new souls are coming
> > up from the animal kingdom all the time _and_ it takes many many
> > lives to achieve perfection/nirvana or whatever name is current,
> > then by now there should be no room to move on planet earth.
>
> One important factor to consider is population size.  Various
> estimates suggest that there is a fixed, large number of entities
> involved in human evolution at this time.  I don't have a
> reliable number, but would suggest around 8 billion for the
> purposes of this discussion.  In earlier (Lemurian) times, the
> world's population was much smaller -- and therefore the time
> between incarnations might have been much quicker, to allow more
> souls to gain embodiment--but there would be much more
> competition to get a body.

What estimates, and suggested upon what evidential basis? Why
suggest 8 billion? Why not 80 billion? 800 billion? There is, so
far as I am aware, any evidence other than alleged clairvoyance
that Lemuria existed as described, or that its population was of
any particular size.  This is, is it not, just a guessing game?

> Furthermore, new souls are _not_ coming up all the time.  That
> particular door has been closed for a long time, and will not be
> open again for another round or so, according to various sources
> (not just theosophical.)

Please cite sources, _and_ their credibility.

> By positing a fixed number of jivas, it's feasible to consider
> that there is a limit to the number that can be in incarnation

By positing an infinite number of jivas, its feasible to consider
that there is no limit, etc., etc., etc.

> > Reason Two: If reincarnation is part of "God Plan, which is
> > Evolution" [Jinarajadasa - First Principles of Theosophy, Adyar]
> > and leads to a general improvement in the human race, where is
> > the supporting evidence? The human race is just as busy now at
> > devising ways of its members being horrible to each other as it
> > ever was, and improves the means of torture, death and
> > destruction of its members on a daily basis.

> This process takes a _very_ long time, but there are signs that
> humanity is improving.  For example, 1,000 years ago it was
> inconceivable that nations could work together to relieve
> suffering -- look at the work of the United Nations now.  That's
> progress, in my opinion.

When I was a youngster, we could leave our back doors open.  We
would be mad to do so now - the place would be ransacked pretty
quickly.  1,000 years ago, there were organisations working
together to relieve suffering, many of them Christian-based.  We
still have them today.  People will send money to relieve
suffering in Africa, then walk past someone sleeping rough on the
local street.  The United Nations have been trying to relieve
suffering in Bosnia, only the Bosnians and Serbs won't let them,
and the Americans won't pay enough to make any real difference -
in fact I heard (could be wrong on this) that the US of A
recently decided not to pay a cent.  There are equally signs that
humanity is _not_ improving.

> The personality, however, is relatively unreal.  It has no
> independent existence, being a transitory and rather loose
> collection of skandas, drives, conditioning and habit, with a
> sprinkling of whatever spiritual awareness that can make it
> through from our innermost levels.  It is born, and will surely
> die.  Life is fair, but it's not intended to cater to the whims
> of the human and therefore limited brain consciousness.

Errr ..... from which level are you saying this, Paul? :-)

> > Reason Four: Who in their right mind would want to come back to
> > the vale of tears, murder, rape, torture, hunger, disease, etc.,
> > etc.? The incentives to get perfect damn quick are all around us

> My guess* is that there is generally an unwillingness to return,
> but the waters of Lethe (i.e.  wiping of memories past) combined
> with tanha (the thirst for life experiences) combine to draw us
> again into the fleshly envelope.  It's also the experience of
> some that when confronted by the vale of tears, they want to try
> to help.  I'm sure you feel that way.  Staying in some devachanic
> realm surrounded by happy memories is all very well, and no doubt
> some entities stay a very long time indeed, but as we progress
> there grows a feeling that we are not separate from the
> sufferings of our fellow human beings, and must therefore come
> into incarnation to try to help those struggling in the darkness.

My understanding of a devachanic realm is a kind of rest room.
"Happy memories" may or may not come into it.  *I see you are
guessing again.  More :-)

> We are therefore _all_ murderers, rapists, torturers, in so much
> as we partake of the one life.  Think of the Boddhisattva vow.

To my way of thinking, the evidence supports just this view.
However, if by virtue of our partaking of the One Life, we are
all both evildoers and victims, then the idea of individual karma
is thereby negated.

> > If I kill and get life in jail, then I know what I am doing time
> > for.  If I reincarnate and "do time," why am I not told why?

> Why not try to find out who is the "I" that asks this question?

Party line, eh, Paul? :-).  The "i" that I find (which is which?)
seems only to recognize Law.

> Everything I have learned in theosophy would tend to support your
> conclusion,

Phew!

> however we have to graduate from kindergarten before we can go
> and "play" in the wider universe.  There are probably a billion
> worlds where the One Life is manifesting--of course there will be
> opportunities for each of us to learn, love and serve in
> unimagineable ways.  For now, let's remember we have work to do
> now, on this world, in this life--but try to enter the Silence
> where such distinctions are unimportant.

I enter the Silence regularly - have done for years.  Trouble is,
I have to leave it again just as regularly, and all the same old
questions are still there.  I have been given _some_ answers, and
again, they all point towards Law.  They also support the idea of
our being in a kind of kindergarten.

> cheers
> Paul Gillingwater

cheers to you too!

Alan.