Theos-Talk Archives (April 1994 Message tl00015)

Hi Jerry H-E,


>      Your replies in the past have been so full of misreadings of
> what I have been trying to communicate, you might understand why
> I would appreciate it if you would "feed back" to me what it is
> that you "understand" concerning where I'm coming from.

Here are the main points mentioned in the Bowen article
(I donot have the article in front of me and am writing
below the main points I remember):

(a)The most important part of TSD is the three
propositions in the Proem.  Reading TSD page after page
(in the usual manner of reading ordinary books from the
first page to the last page serially) is not recommended;
instead HPB recommended reading the Proem, followed
by the chapters on Summaries of the various sections
of the two (original) volumes, and finally the rest of
the material.

(b)SD cannot be communicated using books. In other words
esoteric knowledge cannot be gained just by reading a
book, not even if it happens to be TSD.  TSD only points
towards SD.  Mere reading of TSD is not enough to
understand SD.  SD can only be known through intuition;
study of TSD can help in this process.

I think when you say that you understand SD on seven
levels, you mean that you understand intuitively what the
seven keys are.  This capability probably has taken you a lot of
effort to acquire and it is a great privilege for me to have
the opportunity to learn from you.


>
>      The quote I asked for was where AAB says that her books have
> seven keys (or meanings if you would rather).  The footnote on p.
> 110 of TCF is of course AAB's notations of references in TSD to
> the seven keys in the SD.  Thus, this reference doesn't answer my
> question.  The transcriptions of these references that Brenda
> sent you on 3/16 are correct, so you can read them for yourself.
> Brenda is also correct in surmising that AAB used the 1893
> edition of TSD.  Since I haven't yet found my concordance, I
> suggest that you ask Brenda for a copy of hers.


(a)Brenda, if you are reading this, will you please send me a
copy of your concordance? My address is as follows:
Arvind Kumar, 3024 Landershire Ln, Plano TX 75023-8008.

(b)I sort of remember reading somewhere (or at least hearing from
some of AAB's long time students) that each of the AAB/DK books
has seven levels of interpretation.  I'll look some more.


>
>      While you are at it, you might compare AAB's list (TCF p.
> 110 fn) with the more complete one that I posted several months
> ago.  AAB cited all the same quotes that I used (though I had
> three more).  If AAB had added the anthroposophical, metrical and
> theogonic from my list, and dropped the psychological (HPB
> doesn't call it a key, even in the quote AAB gave), she would
> have had twelve terms, instead of ten.  Interesting.
>

Yes, this is very interesting.  It shows the rather thorough
nature of your study/research of TSD.

>
>      Considering your "hypothesis" and your "objective"
> concerning an investigation of AAB's writings, such an inquiry
> (in my opinion) would be impossible to carry out in a fair,
> unbiased manner.  With this in mind, I assume that we have
> shifted direction again, and the investigation is off, since we
> can't agree upon a methodology.  Therefore, I can discuss my
> observations more freely without worrying about them "skewing"
> the investigation:

It seems very hard to do a 'pure' investigation along the
lines that you had originally suggested, due to (a)the
nature of 'non real time' internet communication, (b)the
rather substantial claims of others on the time we have
available, (c)my rather heavy 'to-read' list, which has
a priority which is different from what may be required to
undertake this study, (d)my need to ask you questions which
may be 'out of turn' as far as the investigation is concerned,
as illustrated by the questions that I just posed regarding
your impression of AAB.  I propose that we continue this
dialog anyways, perhaps without any preconditions or even
methodology, and consider it just an 'information sharing'
project for now!


>
>      My reading of the Autobiography left me with a lot of
> questions, most of which I felt were answerable.  I felt that AAB
> was sincere in her belief that she was in touch with "The
> Tibetan" but her belief did not make it a fact, so I suspended
> judgement on this matter, pending further investigation.

I understand!


>
>      I was also quite impressed with her childhood experiences as
> her description is a very well written account of an upper middle
> class Victorian upbringing.  Her divorce and plunge into poverty
> was also a rather common occurrence under the old marriage laws.
>
>      Her experiences at Krotona, of course, was fleshed out in my
> reading, because of my own historical knowledge of this period.
> Therefore I was able to compare her attitudes and impressions of
> what was going on with documentation concerning what was really
> going on around her.  In this area, I still have a lot of
> questions, and have been exploring them through another source.

Tell me more about this other source, and the results of
your work, as and when you get any.


>
>      Concerning her psychic experiences: seances, telepathic
> communications, visions and visitations, we only know what she
> says concerning these experiences.  The trouble with experiences
> of these types is that they can't be collaborated by witnesses.
> Also, it is well known that what one experiences psychically is
> highly subjective.  We have no way to compare what happened with
> what she experienced.  Since I felt that there was no inclination
> on her part to deceive her readers, I would conclude that AAB was
> of a psychic nature.  The reliability of her experiences and her
> ability to interpret what she experienced is another question
> that cannot be answered just by reading her Autobiography.

I agree with you regarding AAB being a psychic or a 'sensitive'
but looking at the warnings throughout her books against awakening
the psychic faculties prematurely, and the quality of her writing,
I tend to believe that she was certainly no ordinary 'channeler'.


>
>      Like you, I also question AAB's writings concerning issues
> like Wesak.  That is why I asked you how important Wesak is in
> her teachings.  The source of this teaching is from Leadbeater
> and was part of the ES teachings during AAB's time.  It should be
> clear to you by now that I find any clairvoyant teachings of
> Leadbeater questionable.  I have already given you some of my
> reasons for taking this position.  The next question, however, is
> whether AAB's DK also has the same teachings concerning the Wesak
> festival.  If he does, then this throws into question the
> authenticity of the communications between AAB and DK.

As far as I know, the description of the ceremony involving the
Lord Buddha is only in AAB's own writing, and is not a part of
one of the DK books.

>
>      As for HPB's errors, we have to ask the same questions that
> we would of AAB's--where did she get the information?  But it
> seems that the answers we get may be quite different.  In TSD,
> HPB's references are to hundreds of books, journals, scriptures
> etc.  It is all referenced, so in most cases, finding where she
> got the information is easy.  We just find the book (if its
> available).  For TCF, on the other hand, better than 90 percent
> of the references are to TSD.  The rest are to the same Indian
> scriptures that HPB refers to in TSD (thus, these citations may
> be unacknowledged liftings from TSD.  This is something I need to
> check out).  Therefore, based upon the citations, one would guess
> that AAB's basic source for TCF is TSD.  The complication with
> AAB comes with her unacknowledged usage of Leadbeater ES
> material.  If one isn't familiar with the Leadbeater ES material
> (most people are not), then how can we tell which is Leadbeater
> and which is DK?

You are right, only someone who has studied Leadbeater in depth
can sort this out.  Perhaps we will get help from Brenda or others
reading this dialog who may be familiar with  CWL's writings.

>
>      Yes, all theosophical writers make "mistakes."  The
> important questions are: What kind of mistakes do they make?
> What are the sources of their mistakes?  How do the "mistakes"
> affect the rest of the teachings?  When a student points out a
> passage in HPB's writings and says to me "how can HPB have made a
> dumb statement like that?,"  I know that student is on the way to
> becoming a real student of theosophy.

Yes, we need to question everything and not just accept what
someone else is saying, even if others claim that he or she
is a high initiate!


>
>      Coming back to the focus of your question: What I thought of
> AAB's Autobiography and of the person that comes through the
> book--I think I have now covered your question concerning the
> Autobiography.  As for the person that comes through--I get the
> image of a very sincere Christian woman who lived a very
> privileged first half of her life, and a very difficult and
> impoverished second half.  I see a very psychic woman who found
> many personal answers though her study of Theosophy.  Whether she
> was a "channel" for the Masters--nothing in the Autobiography
> convinces me one way or the other.   It just leaves questions,
> and invites me to investigate further--as I have been doing.

I think yours is the only 'well-reasoned' answer that I have got
from non-AAB students that shows why someone may be reluctant to
accept AAB teachings!  Through this dialog I have become a whole
lot more skeptical than I have ever been!!  That is why I am
wanting to read HPB before I go on to read TCF and possibly
the rest of the AAB books.
>
>      I find this form of "channeling" suspect regardless of the
> quality of the information.  Many find "Seth's" messages
> inspirational.  Otherwise, I have no opinion.
>
You may be interested in the following excerpt that I saw on the
Seth teachings elsewhere on Internet:


>>        - Re-incarnation.

          Instead of a linear progression of incarnations, all our
          reincarnations exist at once.  It appears linear due to
          the way we have focused our consciousness.

>>      - Cause and effect.

          It occurs because of foundation beliefs we all hold on
          the nature of physical reality.  But these beliefs can
          be changed if you believe strongly enough against it: e.g.
          if you believe a mountain will move, it will.

>>      - Enlightenment.

          Gnothi Seaton, Know Thyself.  However, Seth claims that the
          path too enlightment need not be of serious moment with
          serious faces.  In fact, one way to enlightment is: "If it
          ain't fun, don't do it".

>>      - Inherent existing self.

          We are multimensional personalities, that is, we are far more
          than we are consciously aware of at present.  This includes
          the subconscious and unconscious strata's of our being, and
          the super inner self that includes all past-future
          incarnations, etc.  We are Gods, couched in creaturehood.

>>      - Ultimate reality.

          There is no ultimate reality.  God (or All-That-Is) is not
          all done and finished and never will be.  All-That-Is is in
          an infinite State of Becoming that is occuring Now.
          Perfection implies a dead end, where all is done and
          completed, and that is not the nature of All-That-Is.  There
          is no ultimate anything for that would imply perfection and
          completeness.

>
> > 5.There is a show called 'Ancient Prophecies' or something like
> > that which is supposed to re-air on NBC on April 10 (Sunday). I
> > was asked by a couple of people to watch it and I am just
> > passing on that info to you here; it may be of interest to us
> > all.
>
>      Thanks, but we will be out of town Sunday. Maybe it will air
> at a different time here.

The show was somewhat shocking, to put it mildly.  It
consisted of segments on Edgar Cayce, Nostradamus and a living
'prophet' by the name of Gordon-Michael Scallion, who apparently has
been rather accurately predicting the recent 'earth changes'
(e.g. hurricane Andrew, the LA quakes, midwest flooding).  He claims
that there will be major changes in the geography and the economy
of the US between now and 2001.  In particular, I am very concerned
about his prediction that California will become the 'islands of
California'.  There is a toll free number (1-800-628-7493) where
anyone can reach the Matrix Institute which he has founded, and
order 'the Map of the (new) US' as well as a Video on his
predictions and also subscribe to his monthly newsletter called 'the
Earth Changes Report'(ECR).  I just yesterday ordered a copy of the
map and a couple of other things!  You definitely need to look into
it (if nothing else, get a copy of the latest newsletter for $5.00).
If you already know about him, let me know what you think.

My response to your previous message (the one on Full moon
festivals etc.) got mysteriously deleted from my Workstation
so I'll have to start all over agin to put in my replies to that
one.  Things are pretty hectic at my workplace right now!
I hope you are in a better situation than before, as far
as workload at the University.

Fraternally,

Arvind